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Writing from the Netherlands. I believe the American rhetoric has fully been divided between the "if you aren't careful, you are killing people" on the left and

Writing from the Netherlands. I believe the American rhetoric has fully been divided between the "if you aren't careful, you are killing people" on the left and "open the economy" on the right. I'm surprised that it isn't clear why the left is in an extremely dangerous position. They can't win unless lots of people are dying. Otherwise, the non-zoom working class will vote in anyone who prioritizes the economy. Isn't wholesale economic collapse a much bigger civilization-wide existential threat than COVID19 itself? I would have also thought that the left would be more scared of another 4 years of Trump (now with unlimited power and money) than his voter base dying in droves. Just surprising, that's all.

Miner49er 7y ago
From what I've seen, the non-Zoom working class is the group most against re-opening. They're the one's most at risk from the virus.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Maybe it's different in the Netherlands. But here there seems to be a lot of contempt for not being able to do construction, cut hair or otherwise work. Luckily, the weather is nice, which generally puts people in good spirits.
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    Maybe I'm wrong, but in the U.S. it seems most people that want things re-opened is a part of the Zoom working class and the upper classes. In the US most blue collar work has been deemed essential anyway. Construction for example, is deemed essential. Layoffs are still happening like crazy, I suppose. I'd say the left generally wants to leave non-essential parts of the economy closed, and give people UBI or freeze rent, etc to help out the working class.
    - bJGVygG7MQVF8c 7y ago
      > in the U.S. it seems most people that want things re-opened is a part of the Zoom working class and the upper classes. This does not seem accurate to me at all. The upper classes have fled the hot-spot cities. The upper-class-aspirant professionals are stuck in the cities working via Zoom. The risk of premature opening there is real, so they're not pushing for reopening. The people pushing for re-opening are mainly non-Zoom non-essential working class people who are feeling the economic pain of the prolonged shutdowns in places where they're not needed. Also, to a lesser extent, people who object to the restrictions on freedoms on cultural-ideological grounds, either on principle or on a cost-benefit basis.
- bJGVygG7MQVF8c 7y ago
  That doesn't comport at all with my observations so far. The non-Zoom working class is also the group most impacted by the economic disruption of shutdowns, which in many (most?) places is needless and everywhere is having regressive economic outcomes, benefiting large companies at the expense of small businesses.
generalpass 7y ago
Another thing ignored by the modern left, who claim to speak out for minority populations, is that authoritarian regimes have historically divided, arrested, restricted, imprisoned, and outright murdered minorities. To be consistent with their claims, they should be terrified of anything approaching authoritarianism.
hef19898 7y ago
The big mistake is to see this as question of left and right and winning or loosing. Actual lifes are on the line, Italy was a disaster. I totally get it why we should avoid sometihng similar at all costs. Up to now, politics followed science, which is not a clear-cut balck-or-white thing. Science is ambigious, especially with stuff like a new virus. Now, I see a lot of movement against that. From the press, from politicians (predminantely, but not exclusively from the conservatives), from celebrities. I, for my part, would rather hear and read from epidemiologists and the like than from theater producers. One of the latter group got a huge article in Der Spiegel this week. The dangerous thing is, as soon as discussions about easing restrictions started in Germany people got more mobile and started to care less. Germany got through all this rather well so far, due to a combination of reasonable actions, luck and a above average testing capacities and ICU beds. I hope the pro-opening people are right, and nothing will happen due to lifted restrictions. But if they are not we might regret the opining in a couple of weeks.
happytoexplain 7y ago
This seems pretty biased. To say some group of people who are sacrificing too much for caution "can't win unless lots of people are dying" is mischaracterizing. It's also kind of silly that you've omitted the accusation of killing from the right's position ("open the economy") when the economic danger is "a civilization-wide existential threat".
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Ok, I'll bite. How is it mischaracterizing? I just don't see how the left can beat Trump, if Trump is advocating for opening up. Especially if the economy stays closed and he is fighting to open it up, he will especially look good. The options are, from my view: Either the economy opens and people die (trump loses), it opens and people don't die (trump wins), the economy stays closed and people die (trump wins) or the economy stays closed and people don't die (trump wins)

Miner49er 7y ago

From what I've seen, the non-Zoom working class is the group most against re-opening. They're the one's most at risk from the virus.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Maybe it's different in the Netherlands. But here there seems to be a lot of contempt for not being able to do construction, cut hair or otherwise work. Luckily, the weather is nice, which generally puts people in good spirits.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  Maybe I'm wrong, but in the U.S. it seems most people that want things re-opened is a part of the Zoom working class and the upper classes. In the US most blue collar work has been deemed essential anyway. Construction for example, is deemed essential. Layoffs are still happening like crazy, I suppose. I'd say the left generally wants to leave non-essential parts of the economy closed, and give people UBI or freeze rent, etc to help out the working class.
  - bJGVygG7MQVF8c 7y ago
    > in the U.S. it seems most people that want things re-opened is a part of the Zoom working class and the upper classes. This does not seem accurate to me at all. The upper classes have fled the hot-spot cities. The upper-class-aspirant professionals are stuck in the cities working via Zoom. The risk of premature opening there is real, so they're not pushing for reopening. The people pushing for re-opening are mainly non-Zoom non-essential working class people who are feeling the economic pain of the prolonged shutdowns in places where they're not needed. Also, to a lesser extent, people who object to the restrictions on freedoms on cultural-ideological grounds, either on principle or on a cost-benefit basis.
bJGVygG7MQVF8c 7y ago
That doesn't comport at all with my observations so far. The non-Zoom working class is also the group most impacted by the economic disruption of shutdowns, which in many (most?) places is needless and everywhere is having regressive economic outcomes, benefiting large companies at the expense of small businesses.

generalpass 7y ago

Another thing ignored by the modern left, who claim to speak out for minority populations, is that authoritarian regimes have historically divided, arrested, restricted, imprisoned, and outright murdered minorities. To be consistent with their claims, they should be terrified of anything approaching authoritarianism.

hef19898 7y ago

The big mistake is to see this as question of left and right and winning or loosing. Actual lifes are on the line, Italy was a disaster. I totally get it why we should avoid sometihng similar at all costs. Up to now, politics followed science, which is not a clear-cut balck-or-white thing. Science is ambigious, especially with stuff like a new virus. Now, I see a lot of movement against that. From the press, from politicians (predminantely, but not exclusively from the conservatives), from celebrities. I, for my part, would rather hear and read from epidemiologists and the like than from theater producers. One of the latter group got a huge article in Der Spiegel this week. The dangerous thing is, as soon as discussions about easing restrictions started in Germany people got more mobile and started to care less. Germany got through all this rather well so far, due to a combination of reasonable actions, luck and a above average testing capacities and ICU beds. I hope the pro-opening people are right, and nothing will happen due to lifted restrictions. But if they are not we might regret the opining in a couple of weeks.

happytoexplain 7y ago

This seems pretty biased. To say some group of people who are sacrificing too much for caution "can't win unless lots of people are dying" is mischaracterizing. It's also kind of silly that you've omitted the accusation of killing from the right's position ("open the economy") when the economic danger is "a civilization-wide existential threat".

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Ok, I'll bite. How is it mischaracterizing? I just don't see how the left can beat Trump, if Trump is advocating for opening up. Especially if the economy stays closed and he is fighting to open it up, he will especially look good. The options are, from my view: Either the economy opens and people die (trump loses), it opens and people don't die (trump wins), the economy stays closed and people die (trump wins) or the economy stays closed and people don't die (trump wins)