6 ms·

Help fight trafficking by uploading photos of your hotel room

52 points by benryon 6y ago

aaron695 6y ago
So we are handing over even more of our spaces to Law enforcement because won't somebody think of the children. Has TraffickCam ever made a match on Sex Trafficking? Whats to stop it's use for other crimes, like an Asian countries government using it to track meetings of the opposition? Or the location of a refugee. And who is running this? Where does the $ go.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I mean, it’s a hotel, not your house. Is it really your space that you’re handing over?
  - kyuudou 6y ago
    For some people like me who basically live in extended-stay hotels, yes, it is my space. In the US, as much as it's trampled on, people will still fight for their 4th amendment rights. https://www.foster.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-privacy-and-the-fourth-amendment https://www.foster.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-pr...
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Yeah, don’t take a picture while you’re actually using the room obviously. But when you’re checking out I don’t see the issue?
      - kyuudou 6y ago
        Oh sure, of course! - just as with a rental situation where the landlord does a last inspection to make sure everything is in reasonably good condition.
- imgabe 6y ago
  Maybe don't take pictures of your secret government opposition meeting and post them on the Internet? Traffickers would need to post photos to advertise their trafficking. Those photos could then be matched and traced. Secret government opposition meetings have no need to post photos. Indeed, if you are taking photos at all at your secret government opposition meeting, you are doing it wrong. To quote Stringer Bell "...are you taking notes on a motherfucking criminal conspiracy???"
  - njharman 6y ago
    At least in the USA every data set available to police, every law of any strength has been extended, stretched or fragrantly misapplied/used (sometimes ruled illegally after the fact when defendant is able to determine what they did and has the means and wherewithal to appeal) well beyond its "sold" purpose. PATRIOT Act, Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, parallel construction to allow NSA data collections to be used domestically, many others. They have it. The incentive to use it "catch" people they know are criminals is great. So they use it. Why not, we're only using it to put away the "bad" people.
    - creato 6y ago
      How can this dataset be abused? A photo of a hotel room, at nonspecific times and without people in it, seems as close to harmless as can be. And there is apparently a law enforcement use case for it that makes sense and does not violate anyone's rights. I am so tired of reading this same slippery slope comment posted hundreds of times per day to HN. It seems like HN will settle for nothing less than law enforcement operating with the same tools and technology they had in 1776. This is very far outside what most people want, and in my opinion, by agitating against things like this for no clear reason helps to keep debate about other more real and significant privacy concerns we are dealing with today on the fringes.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        As someone who thinks he has a fairly extreme view on user privacy, I can’t see what’s wrong with this. It’s a consensual sharing of pictures of something that’s already lived in by many people. I can’t even see where the slope here is.
- jahn716 6y ago
  >Has TraffickCam ever made a match on Sex Trafficking? Great question. As it appears now, it seems like a case of building a product without any validation of results.
rshnotsecure 6y ago
I agree with the other commenter. This could just as much fight trafficking as it could be an "FDCS" or "Foreign Data Collection Scheme" The Australian Strategic Policy Institute has some excellent examples in their paper from a few months ago. If anyone knows if similar work being done, please suggest. [1] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/engineering-global-consent-chinese-communist-partys-data-driven-power-expansion https://www.aspi.org.au/report/engineering-global-consent-ch...
- draugadrotten 6y ago
  It seems to be backed by US DOJ: * Robert Pless, Patrick and Donna Martin Professor of Computer Science, was recently awarded a two-year, $1 million grant from the Department of Justice to continue and expand a project that helps law enforcement identify specific hotel rooms where they suspect illegal activity has taken place. Using a database developed by Dr. Pless and his research team, law enforcement can take photographic evidence collected as part of an investigation and search for similar photos. The database compares these with photos submitted by hotel patrons through the smartphone app TraffickCam and photos from a travel website for a match, which can tell investigators key information about where the photo was taken, including the specific hotel or hotel chain. * https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-trafficking https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-...
- wheelerwj 6y ago
  I can't speak about OPs specific project specifically but this is a relatively old tactic used by authorities to help both human trafficking as well as child pornography/abuse. I've heard about several times in my work with various government agencies over the last 10-15 years.
DeathArrow 6y ago
<irony> Wouldn't governments have an easier life if all citizens would wear a mandatory Internet connected camera from birth? Add an GPS sensor and an RFID tag and we're all set. </irony>
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Black Mirror S04E02, "Arkangel" has just that scenario.
- ape4 6y ago
  Its going to happen because of the COVID-19 for contact tracing.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    No, you will only do it for the volunteers. Everyone else will exercise their rights and refuse the implant.
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Then we would have to force all immigrants to actually use legal entry so they could also be fitted. The problem with trafficking is that many victims have entered the US illegally and there are no records of their existence that cause authorities to question their whereabouts or even suspect they exist.
  - chopin 6y ago
    This can be solved with enough cameras. When those spot someone they immediately can check whether the person is tagged correctly. If not -> that's left as an exercise for the reader.
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      That has 4th amendment illegal search issues all over it. Edit: And that solution allows a person to continue to support the open border/sex trafficking trade.
saagarjha 6y ago
Why can’t hotels just do this themselves?
- draugadrotten 6y ago
  "Without user-submitted photos, the machine-learning system would rely only on photos from travel sites, which tend to be extremely clean and well-lit—a far cry from most evidence police are working with. " https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-trafficking https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-...
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Freed from these pictures being used for advertising themselves, hotels could submit “average” pictures…
    - draugadrotten 6y ago
      Indeed. Nothing stops them.
      - Loughla 6y ago
        I feel like any hotel owner would stop that from happening. Even if the net result is positive (catch the predator), the individual hotel will forever be associated with a negative (hey, look, there's the hotel that was used by predators). I think that's what stops them?
        close04 6y ago
        For some hotels business is business. So they put the morals aside and turn a blind eye. Other higher end hotels simply prefer to do their own due diligence since reputation matters in the business. So they may address the issues but outside of any public eye.
        soylentcola 6y ago
binarysneaker 6y ago
nope.
metaphor 6y ago
> TraffickCam requires access to your location to double check that the photos you submit are actually taken at the hotel you select. Ask for your thoughtful consideration...then your time of day...then your photos...then your tolerance for batshit ridiculous latency...then your on-the-spot location. Seriously?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
miracle2k 6y ago
There have been a number of such initiatives. So far, I have seen no evidence that any sex trafficking has been surfaced by them. The only result, always, is arrest of sex workers who in the US of course face criminal prosecution. When you read about dozens of arrests in a big sex trafficking investigation, it is always woman who are being arrested, and on occasion clients. https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/when-the-robert-kraft-case-fell-apart-the-women-were-l-1834857778/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/when-the-robert-kr...
- dkersten 6y ago
  I’ve heard of one a few years ago where there was a painting in the background that eventually was used to identify the hotel and then the hotel records could be used to tie it to a person. It was a number of years ago so I don’t remember the details to look them up. I’m not sure how effective it is overall, and am certainly wary of anything privacy-eroding, but I do remember reading that story around the time it happened.
- zrth 6y ago
  Not hotel rooms but fotos of random locations: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2019/12/17/two-europol-stopchildabuse-images-geolocated-part-ii-cambodia/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2019/12/17/two-europol-stopc... https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/04/22/creating-impact-a-year-on-stop-child-abuse-trace-an-object/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/04/22/cre...
gwbas1c 6y ago
The first thing this site does is ask me for my location, and then berates me for not sharing my location. Don't assume that someone opening https://traffickcam.com/ https://traffickcam.com/ is there just to upload photos. Wait until I actually push some kind of "upload photos" button before you request my location. FWIW: Whenever I open some unknown web site on the internet, I NEVER share my location. I only share my location when it's clear that location sharing is needed for a specific action.
drtyolmck 6y ago
do we have to be naked?
guiltygods 6y ago
This is redundant now. Almost all hotels post pictures of their hotel rooms online now.

52 points by benryon 6y ago

So we are handing over even more of our spaces to Law enforcement because won't somebody think of the children. Has TraffickCam ever made a match on Sex Trafficking? Whats to stop it's use for other crimes, like an Asian countries government using it to track meetings of the opposition? Or the location of a refugee. And who is running this? Where does the $ go.

saagarjha 6y ago
I mean, it’s a hotel, not your house. Is it really your space that you’re handing over?
- kyuudou 6y ago
  For some people like me who basically live in extended-stay hotels, yes, it is my space. In the US, as much as it's trampled on, people will still fight for their 4th amendment rights. https://www.foster.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-privacy-and-the-fourth-amendment https://www.foster.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-pr...
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Yeah, don’t take a picture while you’re actually using the room obviously. But when you’re checking out I don’t see the issue?
    - kyuudou 6y ago
      Oh sure, of course! - just as with a rental situation where the landlord does a last inspection to make sure everything is in reasonably good condition.
imgabe 6y ago
Maybe don't take pictures of your secret government opposition meeting and post them on the Internet? Traffickers would need to post photos to advertise their trafficking. Those photos could then be matched and traced. Secret government opposition meetings have no need to post photos. Indeed, if you are taking photos at all at your secret government opposition meeting, you are doing it wrong. To quote Stringer Bell "...are you taking notes on a motherfucking criminal conspiracy???"
- njharman 6y ago
  At least in the USA every data set available to police, every law of any strength has been extended, stretched or fragrantly misapplied/used (sometimes ruled illegally after the fact when defendant is able to determine what they did and has the means and wherewithal to appeal) well beyond its "sold" purpose. PATRIOT Act, Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, parallel construction to allow NSA data collections to be used domestically, many others. They have it. The incentive to use it "catch" people they know are criminals is great. So they use it. Why not, we're only using it to put away the "bad" people.
  - creato 6y ago
    How can this dataset be abused? A photo of a hotel room, at nonspecific times and without people in it, seems as close to harmless as can be. And there is apparently a law enforcement use case for it that makes sense and does not violate anyone's rights. I am so tired of reading this same slippery slope comment posted hundreds of times per day to HN. It seems like HN will settle for nothing less than law enforcement operating with the same tools and technology they had in 1776. This is very far outside what most people want, and in my opinion, by agitating against things like this for no clear reason helps to keep debate about other more real and significant privacy concerns we are dealing with today on the fringes.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      As someone who thinks he has a fairly extreme view on user privacy, I can’t see what’s wrong with this. It’s a consensual sharing of pictures of something that’s already lived in by many people. I can’t even see where the slope here is.
jahn716 6y ago
>Has TraffickCam ever made a match on Sex Trafficking? Great question. As it appears now, it seems like a case of building a product without any validation of results.

rshnotsecure 6y ago

I agree with the other commenter. This could just as much fight trafficking as it could be an "FDCS" or "Foreign Data Collection Scheme" The Australian Strategic Policy Institute has some excellent examples in their paper from a few months ago. If anyone knows if similar work being done, please suggest. [1] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/engineering-global-consent-chinese-communist-partys-data-driven-power-expansion https://www.aspi.org.au/report/engineering-global-consent-ch...

draugadrotten 6y ago
It seems to be backed by US DOJ: * Robert Pless, Patrick and Donna Martin Professor of Computer Science, was recently awarded a two-year, $1 million grant from the Department of Justice to continue and expand a project that helps law enforcement identify specific hotel rooms where they suspect illegal activity has taken place. Using a database developed by Dr. Pless and his research team, law enforcement can take photographic evidence collected as part of an investigation and search for similar photos. The database compares these with photos submitted by hotel patrons through the smartphone app TraffickCam and photos from a travel website for a match, which can tell investigators key information about where the photo was taken, including the specific hotel or hotel chain. * https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-trafficking https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-...
wheelerwj 6y ago
I can't speak about OPs specific project specifically but this is a relatively old tactic used by authorities to help both human trafficking as well as child pornography/abuse. I've heard about several times in my work with various government agencies over the last 10-15 years.

DeathArrow 6y ago

<irony> Wouldn't governments have an easier life if all citizens would wear a mandatory Internet connected camera from birth? Add an GPS sensor and an RFID tag and we're all set. </irony>

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Black Mirror S04E02, "Arkangel" has just that scenario.
ape4 6y ago
Its going to happen because of the COVID-19 for contact tracing.
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  No, you will only do it for the volunteers. Everyone else will exercise their rights and refuse the implant.
Fjolsvith 6y ago
Then we would have to force all immigrants to actually use legal entry so they could also be fitted. The problem with trafficking is that many victims have entered the US illegally and there are no records of their existence that cause authorities to question their whereabouts or even suspect they exist.
- chopin 6y ago
  This can be solved with enough cameras. When those spot someone they immediately can check whether the person is tagged correctly. If not -> that's left as an exercise for the reader.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    That has 4th amendment illegal search issues all over it. Edit: And that solution allows a person to continue to support the open border/sex trafficking trade.

saagarjha 6y ago

Why can’t hotels just do this themselves?

draugadrotten 6y ago
"Without user-submitted photos, the machine-learning system would rely only on photos from travel sites, which tend to be extremely clean and well-lit—a far cry from most evidence police are working with. " https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-trafficking https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/using-computer-science-tackle-human-...
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Freed from these pictures being used for advertising themselves, hotels could submit “average” pictures…
  - draugadrotten 6y ago
    Indeed. Nothing stops them.
    - Loughla 6y ago
      I feel like any hotel owner would stop that from happening. Even if the net result is positive (catch the predator), the individual hotel will forever be associated with a negative (hey, look, there's the hotel that was used by predators). I think that's what stops them?
      - close04 6y ago
        For some hotels business is business. So they put the morals aside and turn a blind eye. Other higher end hotels simply prefer to do their own due diligence since reputation matters in the business. So they may address the issues but outside of any public eye.
      - soylentcola 6y ago

binarysneaker 6y ago

nope.

metaphor 6y ago

> TraffickCam requires access to your location to double check that the photos you submit are actually taken at the hotel you select. Ask for your thoughtful consideration...then your time of day...then your photos...then your tolerance for batshit ridiculous latency...then your on-the-spot location. Seriously?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

miracle2k 6y ago

There have been a number of such initiatives. So far, I have seen no evidence that any sex trafficking has been surfaced by them. The only result, always, is arrest of sex workers who in the US of course face criminal prosecution. When you read about dozens of arrests in a big sex trafficking investigation, it is always woman who are being arrested, and on occasion clients. https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/when-the-robert-kraft-case-fell-apart-the-women-were-l-1834857778/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/when-the-robert-kr...

dkersten 6y ago
I’ve heard of one a few years ago where there was a painting in the background that eventually was used to identify the hotel and then the hotel records could be used to tie it to a person. It was a number of years ago so I don’t remember the details to look them up. I’m not sure how effective it is overall, and am certainly wary of anything privacy-eroding, but I do remember reading that story around the time it happened.
zrth 6y ago
Not hotel rooms but fotos of random locations: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2019/12/17/two-europol-stopchildabuse-images-geolocated-part-ii-cambodia/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2019/12/17/two-europol-stopc... https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/04/22/creating-impact-a-year-on-stop-child-abuse-trace-an-object/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/04/22/cre...

gwbas1c 6y ago

The first thing this site does is ask me for my location, and then berates me for not sharing my location. Don't assume that someone opening https://traffickcam.com/ https://traffickcam.com/ is there just to upload photos. Wait until I actually push some kind of "upload photos" button before you request my location. FWIW: Whenever I open some unknown web site on the internet, I NEVER share my location. I only share my location when it's clear that location sharing is needed for a specific action.

drtyolmck 6y ago

do we have to be naked?

guiltygods 6y ago

This is redundant now. Almost all hotels post pictures of their hotel rooms online now.