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The data regarding number of deaths is severely tainted though. Many doctors have claimed(this is also mentioned in the OP video) that their administration pres

by Apaec 6y ago

The data regarding number of deaths is severely tainted though. Many doctors have claimed(this is also mentioned in the OP video) that their administration pressures them for including COVID-19 in causes of death.

javagram 6y ago
But in reality, the number of excess deaths compared to the average year, or compared to last year, is well above the counted number of COVID-19 deaths. Anecdotal claims about deaths being miscounted as COVID-19 don’t really stand up to this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/corona... https://twitter.com/lymanstoneky/status/1252616296891465729 https://twitter.com/lymanstoneky/status/1252616296891465729 The level of deaths/week we are seeing is like nothing that has occurred in decades of recorded vital statistics. (The 1968 flu pandemic shows on the 2nd chart, but is small beans compared to COVID).
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  For those that are paywalled, in New York the excess deaths of 6 times normal. You can't make that go away by claiming normal deaths are being misclassified.
  - cpwright 6y ago
    There are likely deaths that are collateral damage. Fewer people are going to hospitals for heart attacks and strokes. It seems unlikely that we actually have fewer heart attacks, but people are scared of the hospital - so don't go and are more likely to die. I am in the end the lockdown camp; but even if we allow businesses to open, many people will still be legitimately worried or scared and stay home even when it is something important like medical care.
    - aw1621107 6y ago
      > There are likely deaths that are collateral damage. Fewer people are going to hospitals for heart attacks and strokes. And on the flip side, there are people who might have died of things like car accidents if the pandemic and subsequent lockdown had not taken place.
Gibbon1 6y ago
On the flip side I saw a short interview with a UCSF doctor that went to help out in New York where mentioned the hospital converted their cafeteria into a COVID19 ward. Not just in case but because it was full of patients on vents. No amount of Hacker News Mental Gymnastics(tm) is going to explain that away.
- Apaec 6y ago
  Well, I also saw a medical worker saying that if someone dies before testing, that will be counted as a COVID death[1]. No amount of Hacker News Mental Gymnastics(tm) is going to explain that away. [1]:https://twitter.com/BraveTheWorld/status/1254232498122428416 https://twitter.com/BraveTheWorld/status/1254232498122428416
  - lostmsu 6y ago
    Considering mortality is 6x normal, that is a sane default under lack of resources for testing considering at least 80% probability.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > I also saw a medical worker saying that if someone dies before testing, that will be counted as a COVID death[1] But this is what happens for flu too. You want to count them using the same methodology. You either use confirmed cases (Covid-19 kills more people than a bad flu year, and yes we do test for flu); or you use confirmed and suspected cases (again, covid-19 kills more than a bad flu year); or you use excess mortality (and this year we have huge increase in excess mortality). There's no way to look at the data and come up with anything other than "covid-19 kills a lot of people".

by Apaec 6y ago

javagram 6y ago

But in reality, the number of excess deaths compared to the average year, or compared to last year, is well above the counted number of COVID-19 deaths. Anecdotal claims about deaths being miscounted as COVID-19 don’t really stand up to this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/27/upshot/corona... https://twitter.com/lymanstoneky/status/1252616296891465729 https://twitter.com/lymanstoneky/status/1252616296891465729 The level of deaths/week we are seeing is like nothing that has occurred in decades of recorded vital statistics. (The 1968 flu pandemic shows on the 2nd chart, but is small beans compared to COVID).

Gibbon1 6y ago
For those that are paywalled, in New York the excess deaths of 6 times normal. You can't make that go away by claiming normal deaths are being misclassified.
- cpwright 6y ago
  There are likely deaths that are collateral damage. Fewer people are going to hospitals for heart attacks and strokes. It seems unlikely that we actually have fewer heart attacks, but people are scared of the hospital - so don't go and are more likely to die. I am in the end the lockdown camp; but even if we allow businesses to open, many people will still be legitimately worried or scared and stay home even when it is something important like medical care.
  - aw1621107 6y ago
    > There are likely deaths that are collateral damage. Fewer people are going to hospitals for heart attacks and strokes. And on the flip side, there are people who might have died of things like car accidents if the pandemic and subsequent lockdown had not taken place.

Gibbon1 6y ago

On the flip side I saw a short interview with a UCSF doctor that went to help out in New York where mentioned the hospital converted their cafeteria into a COVID19 ward. Not just in case but because it was full of patients on vents. No amount of Hacker News Mental Gymnastics(tm) is going to explain that away.

Apaec 6y ago
Well, I also saw a medical worker saying that if someone dies before testing, that will be counted as a COVID death[1]. No amount of Hacker News Mental Gymnastics(tm) is going to explain that away. [1]:https://twitter.com/BraveTheWorld/status/1254232498122428416 https://twitter.com/BraveTheWorld/status/1254232498122428416
- lostmsu 6y ago
  Considering mortality is 6x normal, that is a sane default under lack of resources for testing considering at least 80% probability.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > I also saw a medical worker saying that if someone dies before testing, that will be counted as a COVID death[1] But this is what happens for flu too. You want to count them using the same methodology. You either use confirmed cases (Covid-19 kills more people than a bad flu year, and yes we do test for flu); or you use confirmed and suspected cases (again, covid-19 kills more than a bad flu year); or you use excess mortality (and this year we have huge increase in excess mortality). There's no way to look at the data and come up with anything other than "covid-19 kills a lot of people".