8 ms·

or, more simply, "I'm sorry I got caught" Look, the man participated in a drive-by shooting on a synagogue when he was a legal adult. It's disgusting that peop

by Pils 6y ago

or, more simply, "I'm sorry I got caught" Look, the man participated in a drive-by shooting on a synagogue when he was a legal adult. It's disgusting that people on this site are defending a literal terrorist because "he's one of our own."

wmichelin 6y ago
Is it so unrealistic to think that an abused child would fall into a world of hate? Yes, participating in a drive-by shooting is absolutely horrible, but if he paid his dues to society through our legal system, why should this man be unable to run a business? He clearly shows remorse for his hatred. I am not defending nazism in the least, but I think "cancelling" someone who made absolutely terrible decisions as a literal child is not a healthy way for our society to operate.
- Pils 6y ago
  Lets be clear, he showed remorse once he was caught, but none before then. What dues did he pay? He appears to have moved on from that stage of his life fairly quickly, and appears to never have been rejected employment/housing via background checks due to a technicality. There are men on death row who committed the exact same crime. I disagree with your second paragraph entirely. I do not want to live in a society where CEOs of multimillion dollar companies have indiscriminately shot up places of worship when they were 17 years old.
  - jprince 6y ago
    So what do you do with those people who did do those despicable things as teens? I don't just mean this, but any reprehensible action. I think obviously we can maybe keep them from getting any kind of comfortable jobs, keep them doing drudge work. But even then, do you really want a neo-nazi cleaning your toilets? No, that's not good enough. We need to round them up and contain them somewhere. Their remorse can't be enough. We can't have them contaminating our air. If we put them in a single location and kept them from getting in and out, concentrated, we could keep ourselves safe from these people. /sarcasm
    - Pils 6y ago
      You appear to have issues with my statement, but also don't seem willing to provide a coherent rebuttal. If you are willing to speak your mind plainly and clearly, feel free to edit your comment. Since you evoked concentration camps, I'd be remissed if I didn't point out that the vast majority of Nazi bureaucrats, including many directly involved in the administration of concentration camps, faced essentially no punishment and quickly re-entered the postwar workforce. No one involved in the illegal incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII was ever sent to prison.
    - fzeroracer 6y ago
      It's interesting that you bring this up, considering we've placed people into camps for far less (such as the crime of 'crossing the borders'), not to mention the hardline stance we've taken against MS-13 including things such as deporting teenagers whom gave us information on MS-13 and were undoubtedly marked for death. Can you tell me what the difference is between a neo-nazi gang and MS-13 and why one gets crocodile tears while the other has the book thrown at them?
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > There are men on death row who committed the exact same crime. [citation needed]. There are very few crimes eligible for capital punishment in the United States, and neither juvenile delinquency nor property damage are among them, even if ethnically motivated and/or involving a firearm. > I do not want to live in a society where CEOs of multimillion dollar companies have indiscriminately shot up places of worship when they were 17 years old. I do not want to live in a society where teenagers are prevented from "the pursuit of happiness" (one of the three inalienable rights upon which my country was founded) for the rest of their lives simply because they were victims of white supremacist grooming/brainwashing.
    - Pils 6y ago
      > [citation needed] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_penalty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe.... There are quite a few under-18 cases. > "the pursuit of happiness" (one of the three inalienable rights upon which my country was founded) inalienable rights are, by definition, forfeitable in the cases where one's actions violate another person's or group's inalienable rights. Shooting up a synagogue qualifies as one such action. > simply because they were victims of white supremacist grooming/brainwashing. "These weren't the kind of men you send to jail... You don't make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal."[1] Once again, let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, who participated in a violent hate crime and avoided the consequences of his actions due to a sympathetic court and typo, is the victim in this whole affair. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin
      - yellowapple 6y ago
        > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe.... There are quite a few under-18 cases. Per the article: "No one was struck or killed in the shooting." So again, [citation needed] about people committing the "exact same" crime being on death row, given that the crime described in the article is far below the bar necessary to warrant capital punishment. > let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, who participated in a violent hate crime and avoided the consequences of his actions due to a sympathetic court and typo, is the victim in this whole affair. And let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that people (especially teenagers) can't be victims of indoctrination, can't possibly feel genuine remorse for their mistakes as teenagers, and must be deprived of their rights forever because of those mistakes. I don't give the slightest sliver of a damn whether he's a CEO or a cashier. Morality is morality. Comparing a crime that resulted in zero injuries or deaths to two men beating someone to death face-to-face is nonsensical. We can possibly argue intent (i.e. did Patton et. al. intend to actually kill people inside the synagogue), but it should be entirely unsurprising that someone who neither injured or killed someone went relatively unpunished due to said lack of injury or death, especially given that he was willing to plead guilty and testify against the other perpetrators. Patton still did a shitty thing, but we have every indication that in the 30 years since then he's turned his life around and is genuine in his remorse. If there was evidence he continued to fraternize with skinheads even after that trial, especially recently, then by all means it's reasonable to be skeptical, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
- stareatgoats 6y ago
  I agree. At the same time I wonder if you would extend the same empathy towards a reformed jihadist? Or if you would, if it would receive the same up-votes here and elsewhere. It's certainly not an easy task, being the harbinger of universal forgiveness and second chances.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > At the same time I wonder if you would extend the same empathy towards a reformed jihadist? I definitely would. On that note, you'd might be surprised by the degree to which "jihadist" and "neo-Nazi" overlap, especially when the latter's of the Christian fundamentalist flavor; the Venn diagram more often than not ends up looking like a slightly-out-of-focus circle.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      Tarek Mehanna might benefit.
      - yellowapple 6y ago
        Indeed. The situation's a little bit different - the alleged crimes happened somewhat more recently, and he was a couple years older than Patton was when he traveled to Yemen - but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, I'm just a random citizen with effectively no power to help, so that's probably cold comfort for him.
- burner831234 6y ago
  There are many literal children in jail, seriously injured, closed out from future gainful employment or dead for doing far less.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    Indeed. I'd personally rather reduce that number instead of increase it, though.

by Pils 6y ago

wmichelin 6y ago

Is it so unrealistic to think that an abused child would fall into a world of hate? Yes, participating in a drive-by shooting is absolutely horrible, but if he paid his dues to society through our legal system, why should this man be unable to run a business? He clearly shows remorse for his hatred. I am not defending nazism in the least, but I think "cancelling" someone who made absolutely terrible decisions as a literal child is not a healthy way for our society to operate.

Pils 6y ago
Lets be clear, he showed remorse once he was caught, but none before then. What dues did he pay? He appears to have moved on from that stage of his life fairly quickly, and appears to never have been rejected employment/housing via background checks due to a technicality. There are men on death row who committed the exact same crime. I disagree with your second paragraph entirely. I do not want to live in a society where CEOs of multimillion dollar companies have indiscriminately shot up places of worship when they were 17 years old.
- jprince 6y ago
  So what do you do with those people who did do those despicable things as teens? I don't just mean this, but any reprehensible action. I think obviously we can maybe keep them from getting any kind of comfortable jobs, keep them doing drudge work. But even then, do you really want a neo-nazi cleaning your toilets? No, that's not good enough. We need to round them up and contain them somewhere. Their remorse can't be enough. We can't have them contaminating our air. If we put them in a single location and kept them from getting in and out, concentrated, we could keep ourselves safe from these people. /sarcasm
  - Pils 6y ago
    You appear to have issues with my statement, but also don't seem willing to provide a coherent rebuttal. If you are willing to speak your mind plainly and clearly, feel free to edit your comment. Since you evoked concentration camps, I'd be remissed if I didn't point out that the vast majority of Nazi bureaucrats, including many directly involved in the administration of concentration camps, faced essentially no punishment and quickly re-entered the postwar workforce. No one involved in the illegal incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII was ever sent to prison.
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    It's interesting that you bring this up, considering we've placed people into camps for far less (such as the crime of 'crossing the borders'), not to mention the hardline stance we've taken against MS-13 including things such as deporting teenagers whom gave us information on MS-13 and were undoubtedly marked for death. Can you tell me what the difference is between a neo-nazi gang and MS-13 and why one gets crocodile tears while the other has the book thrown at them?
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > There are men on death row who committed the exact same crime. [citation needed]. There are very few crimes eligible for capital punishment in the United States, and neither juvenile delinquency nor property damage are among them, even if ethnically motivated and/or involving a firearm. > I do not want to live in a society where CEOs of multimillion dollar companies have indiscriminately shot up places of worship when they were 17 years old. I do not want to live in a society where teenagers are prevented from "the pursuit of happiness" (one of the three inalienable rights upon which my country was founded) for the rest of their lives simply because they were victims of white supremacist grooming/brainwashing.
  - Pils 6y ago
    > [citation needed] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_penalty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe.... There are quite a few under-18 cases. > "the pursuit of happiness" (one of the three inalienable rights upon which my country was founded) inalienable rights are, by definition, forfeitable in the cases where one's actions violate another person's or group's inalienable rights. Shooting up a synagogue qualifies as one such action. > simply because they were victims of white supremacist grooming/brainwashing. "These weren't the kind of men you send to jail... You don't make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal."[1] Once again, let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, who participated in a violent hate crime and avoided the consequences of his actions due to a sympathetic court and typo, is the victim in this whole affair. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_pe.... There are quite a few under-18 cases. Per the article: "No one was struck or killed in the shooting." So again, [citation needed] about people committing the "exact same" crime being on death row, given that the crime described in the article is far below the bar necessary to warrant capital punishment. > let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, who participated in a violent hate crime and avoided the consequences of his actions due to a sympathetic court and typo, is the victim in this whole affair. And let me state that I find it incredible that many people such as yourself believe that people (especially teenagers) can't be victims of indoctrination, can't possibly feel genuine remorse for their mistakes as teenagers, and must be deprived of their rights forever because of those mistakes. I don't give the slightest sliver of a damn whether he's a CEO or a cashier. Morality is morality. Comparing a crime that resulted in zero injuries or deaths to two men beating someone to death face-to-face is nonsensical. We can possibly argue intent (i.e. did Patton et. al. intend to actually kill people inside the synagogue), but it should be entirely unsurprising that someone who neither injured or killed someone went relatively unpunished due to said lack of injury or death, especially given that he was willing to plead guilty and testify against the other perpetrators. Patton still did a shitty thing, but we have every indication that in the 30 years since then he's turned his life around and is genuine in his remorse. If there was evidence he continued to fraternize with skinheads even after that trial, especially recently, then by all means it's reasonable to be skeptical, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
stareatgoats 6y ago
I agree. At the same time I wonder if you would extend the same empathy towards a reformed jihadist? Or if you would, if it would receive the same up-votes here and elsewhere. It's certainly not an easy task, being the harbinger of universal forgiveness and second chances.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > At the same time I wonder if you would extend the same empathy towards a reformed jihadist? I definitely would. On that note, you'd might be surprised by the degree to which "jihadist" and "neo-Nazi" overlap, especially when the latter's of the Christian fundamentalist flavor; the Venn diagram more often than not ends up looking like a slightly-out-of-focus circle.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    Tarek Mehanna might benefit.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      Indeed. The situation's a little bit different - the alleged crimes happened somewhat more recently, and he was a couple years older than Patton was when he traveled to Yemen - but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, I'm just a random citizen with effectively no power to help, so that's probably cold comfort for him.
burner831234 6y ago
There are many literal children in jail, seriously injured, closed out from future gainful employment or dead for doing far less.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  Indeed. I'd personally rather reduce that number instead of increase it, though.