5 ms·

Tethering to a PC/Mac is an obvious hack, but nevertheless today's tablets (whether iOS, Android, or whatever) are clearly post-PC devices. Why? The filesystem

Tethering to a PC/Mac is an obvious hack, but nevertheless today's tablets (whether iOS, Android, or whatever) are clearly post-PC devices. Why? The filesystem has gone away. Everything about the previous generation of computers revolved around files. To a user, everything on a PC is a file. Nothing on my iPad looks like a file. There are icons for applications. Are they files? Or is this HTML presented in a browser? Does a user know or care? This simple difference changes everything. No files means that DVDs, floppy discs, thumb drives, and all other forms of storage are suddenly repositioned. iTunes sucks in so many ways, but one way it doesn't suck is that I don't care where my songs are, just that there's a database of songs with an interface that is song-specific. Music playing applications are post-PC ways to manipulate music. Obviously iTunes exists on a Mac/PC as well as on an iOS device. On a Mac or a PC, it provides an interface for dealing with music files, but I can still hunt for the files if I want to. If I move a file, I break the carefully crafted illusion of there just being music. On a Mac, I install software by downloading it and dragging it into my Applications folder. I'm manipulating files. Sure, there are fronts put up so I can avoid the files, like installer packages and the new Mac App Store. But the application files are still there to be manipulated and I can still fool around with the Library and stumble over the filesystem's spoor when I go trekking through the Finder. On an iOS device, there are no files, there is no Finder. Software is installed by some magic process that never exposes me to the implementation. The illusion is complete. This is what makes an iOS device a post-PC device. I imagine that there are or will be tablets and phones where I can break into the device and discover that hidden from the user is a world of files. Such devices won't be post-PC devices, they'll be PCs in a tablet form factor. To summarize, my contention is that "Post-PC Device" doesn't mean tablet or phone, it means "No filesystem."

gloob 16y ago
In order to clarify, I assume when you say "no filesystem", you mean "no user-visible filesystem, but is still muggle-usable (and might well have a filesystem under the hood)", yes? Because we've had computers without filesystems for about as long as we've had computers. Computers with filesystems are a significantly more recent innovation.
- a-priori 16y ago
  Yes, iOS uses a filesystem under the hood. The applications just never expose it to the user. As an application developer you should be aware of it, but as a user? it doesn't matter one bit.
- raganwald 16y ago
  A computer without a filesystem that predated personal computers can be called a pre-PC device if you like ;-) If a device has a filesystem for its own use but does not expose the filesystem to users or to applications, that's a post-PC device. If we merely denude the device of the Finder but all the apps use the filesystem, I'm on the fence. It's a post-PC device in all the ways that matter to users, but it feels transitional to me. Future generations of post-PC device won't expose a filesystem to developers or users. So yes, iOS devices are post-PC devices, but they can become even more so.
  - gloob 16y ago
    A computer without a filesystem that predated personal computers can be called a pre-PC device if you like ;-) I was pretty sure this was going to be part of the answer, but I laughed out loud when I saw it anyway. Thanks for clarifying your ideas. :)
    - raganwald 16y ago
      It's only half a joke. The great PC revolution was that users became their own data processing departments. So pre-PC devices had users that were blind to the question of which Mag tape or removable hard drive platter held the data they needed for a report. PCs put us all to work as data processing minions, just as rotary dial telephones put us all to work as operators. So if you turn your head sideways and squint, there are some similarities between pre-PC and post-PC devices.
Isamu 16y ago
Agreed. The file system is hidden away as an unnecessary distraction from the user's view of the task at hand. The iOS devices are arguably more task-oriented than PCs. Also in calling them post-PC devices Jobs is signalling his intent to continue moving in a new direction, one that separates them from the pack. Contrary to the article, Jobs did not claim that tablets are post-PC, just that his iOS devices were post-PC.
pavel_lishin 16y ago
> one way it doesn't suck is that I don't care where my songs are Until it's time to back them up, right?
- r00fus 16y ago
  Which is why the OS (Win7, iOS, OSX at least) reminds you to back up the system and makes it easy to do so (ie, attach drive with sufficient space, go). iOS requires iTunes on a PC/Mac to back up, but this is likely a business decision to make more $$, and could easily be replaced by a clouded or local backup appliance. In this mechanism you have to willingly ignore the backup requests... it's like the seatbelt beep in modern cars - at that point, it's 99% PEBKAC if no backup exists.
- raganwald 16y ago
  What is "backing them up?" Why am I doing this? What purpose does it serve? It sounds like something that people with pocket protectors care about... They like the arcana of playing with PCs whereas I like music. In all seriousness, if losing all your music when you lose your tablet is a fatal flaw, the solution is to expand MobileMe so that it syncs my music to the cloud, not to ask me to know what FAT32 is and why some hard drives can hold a 1080p movie but others can't even if they claim to have enough disc space and... Oh, my head hurts just trying to describe the awful experience that is using a PC.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    > the solution is to expand MobileMe so that it syncs my music to the cloud Is this something MobileMe is currently capable of, or are you saying that it's up to Apple to implement that solution?
    - raganwald 16y ago
      So far, there are rumours suggesting that Apple will implement music syncing via MobileMe, but right now it only syncs "productivity" data like contacts, bookmarks, and email accounts.
  - 16y ago
dexen 16y ago
1990's called, they want their technology back. [1] It's been tried times and times again. I've seen it on Symbian on SE P910 (virtual directories per file sense, like video, audio etc), Windows 95 & later(`My Computer'), KDE, N900. You have seen it on other software, and probably will see a few more times. The `no filesystem' is a leaky abstraction [2]; sooner or later programs start exposing files and directories, because that's what people understand and want to use. `No filesystem' is flimsy magic, files feel like physical objects you actually own. `No filesystem' is the limited menu of your DVD, files and directories are your house with rooms with drawers with shelves with boxes with items. Your way. -- [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian [2] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LeakyAbstraction http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LeakyAbstraction
- raganwald 16y ago
  "No filesystem" is only a leaky abstraction when people rooted in the 1980s write filesystem software and try to wrap it in a filesystem-less interface. Files and directories are what you--and people like you--like and want to use. The rest of us don't give a damn about them, especially the way you build them for us. Now I will return to your snarky quip. Your contention is that if something failed in the 1990s, it will necessarily fail in 201x? This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Almost everything that succeeds today failed in some form in the past, it's just that times have changed and things previously impossible or impractical are suddenly reasonable. The whole point of $500 thingummies is that they exist in a very different world than $2,500 whatchamacallits.
  - dexen 16y ago
    > Your contention is that if something failed in the 1990s, it will necessarily fail in 201x? Nope; the reasoning for the inadequacy is based on the fact you can't please users by including just 80% of features. Sure they use 80% at most, but everybody has different 80% [1]. A collection of objects (here: files) can only (reasonably) be a: 1) set, 2) directed acyclic graph - a.k.a. tree, 3) relational database (in the general sense) 1) is pretty much pointless, 2) is what my mom and little sister understand and use as it requires little querying, 3) requires a powerful query language (that's what right & comfy for us nerds, right?). So far the filesystem-less software has been two-prong: mounting filesystems at certain pre-designated mountpoints (Windows & friends), nevermind that; and presenting a querable database with a bunch of predefined queries -- AND NO WAY OF CREATING ANY MORE QUERIES. That's the 80% your users aren't looking for. Now if you come up with a query language that's quick and easy to use from GUI, I'll buy you a week-long supply of your $FAV_BEWERAGE, cross my heart. (drop me a line at dexen.devries + the usual gmail suffix). But it will not `look like' -- semantics-wise -- as the curret breed of Symbians and iOSes. QED. -- [1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/12/09.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/12/09.html
recoiledsnake 16y ago
>To summarize, my contention is that "Post-PC Device" doesn't mean tablet or phone, it means "No filesystem." It could mean "Locked down to need app approval and 30% cut of services" too.
dstein 16y ago
The concept of "files" were an abstraction in the first place. The icon, or the row in my directory list output that says "/Documents/file.xml" is simply an abstract way of visualizing "where" and "what" that particular data represents. What is different (compared to personal computers) is the filesystem (the location of your data) itself is becoming abstract and disjointed from the physical device you are using. Data is moving into the cloud and our devices become stateless interfaces. It's simply an undoing of what the personal computer did which was to tie your data to the physical device. Thin-client with a new buzzword.
oconnore 16y ago
Someday the iPad developers will realize that users want to access their content from several different applications in a compatible, centrally accessible manner. They will want to combine a picture from Hipstamatic with a song from iTunes with a thank you letter they wrote in some editor, combine them into a greeting card and then send it via email. In order to orchestrate this, they will need a central repository of their data, that they can search around, and is hopefully organized (ie, they remember that their picture was taken in 1997 at that trip to Chicago, or that the song was a rock song they heard on the radio in highschool). Apple, recognizing this need, will release a new app that will allow users to create hierarchical categories for their stuff, search their stuff, move it around, and make copies of their stuff. The app will probably be named "Finder", and these pieces of data might be named, "files".
- raganwald 16y ago
  What makes you think that a hierarchy is the right way to represent shared data? I don't use a hierarchy to organize my documents, I use search. The problem with a hierarchy is that it appeals to ontologists, people who like to organize things in one and exactly one way, and they like to do it up front. Search, and its cousin Query, are the other way of looking at things: Put everything somewhere and give me a way to get what I want. I predict that if and when Apple provides something along the lines of shared data, it will look more like Microsoft's original vision for WinFS than the Finder. Or maybe... just maybe... it will look like Newton's soup ;-) https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WinFS https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WinFS https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Soup_(Apple_Newton) https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Soup_(Apple_N...
  - r00fus 16y ago
    Hear, hear. Since forever, I've used my ~ folder as pretty much my whole document base, and use search tools to sift through the contents. I add simply ontology when specific tools require their own unpolluted namespace (ie, pine/mail) or need to be installed for multiple users (local box binaries). iOS devices (as an example) just take this to the next level. In fact, I don't even use the main screen for launching many apps, I just type in the search screen to get it. If I could speak it in a seamless way, I'd do that instead.
nickolai 16y ago
> Post-PC Device : Build me a computer - No Local Filesystems Allowed. I'm not sure I would agree with the post. It is difficult to argue with the success of the tablets, but I am not sure if diskless systems could really qualify as a ". Post-PC computing system" unless they replace the PCs. Harddiskless computers have been around for quite a while now, but i'm not sure a standard workstation could be replaced by one anytime soon. Even though most data is stored remotely, local work copies are at the foundation of most of the tools we use. These tools would have to be rewritten either to no longer make local copies or to hide their locality from the user. Both of the solutions are nontrivial and their benefits are non-obvious. What is the exact gain of doing a checkout to a remote disk instead of that of my workstation? That i can ligitimately slack off at the coffee machine when the network goes down? But maybe it is just that im not open-minded enough to allow my PC to need anything other than power for me to be productive.
brudgers 16y ago
>"'Post-PC Device' doesn't mean tablet or phone, it means 'No filesystem.'" "No user accessible file system" is probably a more appropriate meaning in terms of Apple (other vendors may vary). Another way of describing the Apple model is that the user cannot access the file system without Apple's explicit permission (e.g. iTunes and MobileMe mentioned elsewhere).

gloob 16y ago

In order to clarify, I assume when you say "no filesystem", you mean "no user-visible filesystem, but is still muggle-usable (and might well have a filesystem under the hood)", yes? Because we've had computers without filesystems for about as long as we've had computers. Computers with filesystems are a significantly more recent innovation.

a-priori 16y ago
Yes, iOS uses a filesystem under the hood. The applications just never expose it to the user. As an application developer you should be aware of it, but as a user? it doesn't matter one bit.
raganwald 16y ago
A computer without a filesystem that predated personal computers can be called a pre-PC device if you like ;-) If a device has a filesystem for its own use but does not expose the filesystem to users or to applications, that's a post-PC device. If we merely denude the device of the Finder but all the apps use the filesystem, I'm on the fence. It's a post-PC device in all the ways that matter to users, but it feels transitional to me. Future generations of post-PC device won't expose a filesystem to developers or users. So yes, iOS devices are post-PC devices, but they can become even more so.
- gloob 16y ago
  A computer without a filesystem that predated personal computers can be called a pre-PC device if you like ;-) I was pretty sure this was going to be part of the answer, but I laughed out loud when I saw it anyway. Thanks for clarifying your ideas. :)
  - raganwald 16y ago
    It's only half a joke. The great PC revolution was that users became their own data processing departments. So pre-PC devices had users that were blind to the question of which Mag tape or removable hard drive platter held the data they needed for a report. PCs put us all to work as data processing minions, just as rotary dial telephones put us all to work as operators. So if you turn your head sideways and squint, there are some similarities between pre-PC and post-PC devices.

Isamu 16y ago

Agreed. The file system is hidden away as an unnecessary distraction from the user's view of the task at hand. The iOS devices are arguably more task-oriented than PCs. Also in calling them post-PC devices Jobs is signalling his intent to continue moving in a new direction, one that separates them from the pack. Contrary to the article, Jobs did not claim that tablets are post-PC, just that his iOS devices were post-PC.

pavel_lishin 16y ago

> one way it doesn't suck is that I don't care where my songs are Until it's time to back them up, right?

r00fus 16y ago
Which is why the OS (Win7, iOS, OSX at least) reminds you to back up the system and makes it easy to do so (ie, attach drive with sufficient space, go). iOS requires iTunes on a PC/Mac to back up, but this is likely a business decision to make more $$, and could easily be replaced by a clouded or local backup appliance. In this mechanism you have to willingly ignore the backup requests... it's like the seatbelt beep in modern cars - at that point, it's 99% PEBKAC if no backup exists.
raganwald 16y ago
What is "backing them up?" Why am I doing this? What purpose does it serve? It sounds like something that people with pocket protectors care about... They like the arcana of playing with PCs whereas I like music. In all seriousness, if losing all your music when you lose your tablet is a fatal flaw, the solution is to expand MobileMe so that it syncs my music to the cloud, not to ask me to know what FAT32 is and why some hard drives can hold a 1080p movie but others can't even if they claim to have enough disc space and... Oh, my head hurts just trying to describe the awful experience that is using a PC.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > the solution is to expand MobileMe so that it syncs my music to the cloud Is this something MobileMe is currently capable of, or are you saying that it's up to Apple to implement that solution?
  - raganwald 16y ago
    So far, there are rumours suggesting that Apple will implement music syncing via MobileMe, but right now it only syncs "productivity" data like contacts, bookmarks, and email accounts.
- 16y ago

dexen 16y ago

1990's called, they want their technology back. [1] It's been tried times and times again. I've seen it on Symbian on SE P910 (virtual directories per file sense, like video, audio etc), Windows 95 & later(`My Computer'), KDE, N900. You have seen it on other software, and probably will see a few more times. The `no filesystem' is a leaky abstraction [2]; sooner or later programs start exposing files and directories, because that's what people understand and want to use. `No filesystem' is flimsy magic, files feel like physical objects you actually own. `No filesystem' is the limited menu of your DVD, files and directories are your house with rooms with drawers with shelves with boxes with items. Your way. -- [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian [2] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LeakyAbstraction http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LeakyAbstraction

raganwald 16y ago
"No filesystem" is only a leaky abstraction when people rooted in the 1980s write filesystem software and try to wrap it in a filesystem-less interface. Files and directories are what you--and people like you--like and want to use. The rest of us don't give a damn about them, especially the way you build them for us. Now I will return to your snarky quip. Your contention is that if something failed in the 1990s, it will necessarily fail in 201x? This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Almost everything that succeeds today failed in some form in the past, it's just that times have changed and things previously impossible or impractical are suddenly reasonable. The whole point of $500 thingummies is that they exist in a very different world than $2,500 whatchamacallits.
- dexen 16y ago
  > Your contention is that if something failed in the 1990s, it will necessarily fail in 201x? Nope; the reasoning for the inadequacy is based on the fact you can't please users by including just 80% of features. Sure they use 80% at most, but everybody has different 80% [1]. A collection of objects (here: files) can only (reasonably) be a: 1) set, 2) directed acyclic graph - a.k.a. tree, 3) relational database (in the general sense) 1) is pretty much pointless, 2) is what my mom and little sister understand and use as it requires little querying, 3) requires a powerful query language (that's what right & comfy for us nerds, right?). So far the filesystem-less software has been two-prong: mounting filesystems at certain pre-designated mountpoints (Windows & friends), nevermind that; and presenting a querable database with a bunch of predefined queries -- AND NO WAY OF CREATING ANY MORE QUERIES. That's the 80% your users aren't looking for. Now if you come up with a query language that's quick and easy to use from GUI, I'll buy you a week-long supply of your $FAV_BEWERAGE, cross my heart. (drop me a line at dexen.devries + the usual gmail suffix). But it will not `look like' -- semantics-wise -- as the curret breed of Symbians and iOSes. QED. -- [1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/12/09.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/12/09.html

recoiledsnake 16y ago

>To summarize, my contention is that "Post-PC Device" doesn't mean tablet or phone, it means "No filesystem." It could mean "Locked down to need app approval and 30% cut of services" too.

dstein 16y ago

The concept of "files" were an abstraction in the first place. The icon, or the row in my directory list output that says "/Documents/file.xml" is simply an abstract way of visualizing "where" and "what" that particular data represents. What is different (compared to personal computers) is the filesystem (the location of your data) itself is becoming abstract and disjointed from the physical device you are using. Data is moving into the cloud and our devices become stateless interfaces. It's simply an undoing of what the personal computer did which was to tie your data to the physical device. Thin-client with a new buzzword.

oconnore 16y ago

Someday the iPad developers will realize that users want to access their content from several different applications in a compatible, centrally accessible manner. They will want to combine a picture from Hipstamatic with a song from iTunes with a thank you letter they wrote in some editor, combine them into a greeting card and then send it via email. In order to orchestrate this, they will need a central repository of their data, that they can search around, and is hopefully organized (ie, they remember that their picture was taken in 1997 at that trip to Chicago, or that the song was a rock song they heard on the radio in highschool). Apple, recognizing this need, will release a new app that will allow users to create hierarchical categories for their stuff, search their stuff, move it around, and make copies of their stuff. The app will probably be named "Finder", and these pieces of data might be named, "files".

raganwald 16y ago
What makes you think that a hierarchy is the right way to represent shared data? I don't use a hierarchy to organize my documents, I use search. The problem with a hierarchy is that it appeals to ontologists, people who like to organize things in one and exactly one way, and they like to do it up front. Search, and its cousin Query, are the other way of looking at things: Put everything somewhere and give me a way to get what I want. I predict that if and when Apple provides something along the lines of shared data, it will look more like Microsoft's original vision for WinFS than the Finder. Or maybe... just maybe... it will look like Newton's soup ;-) https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WinFS https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WinFS https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Soup_(Apple_Newton) https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Soup_(Apple_N...
- r00fus 16y ago
  Hear, hear. Since forever, I've used my ~ folder as pretty much my whole document base, and use search tools to sift through the contents. I add simply ontology when specific tools require their own unpolluted namespace (ie, pine/mail) or need to be installed for multiple users (local box binaries). iOS devices (as an example) just take this to the next level. In fact, I don't even use the main screen for launching many apps, I just type in the search screen to get it. If I could speak it in a seamless way, I'd do that instead.

nickolai 16y ago

> Post-PC Device : Build me a computer - No Local Filesystems Allowed. I'm not sure I would agree with the post. It is difficult to argue with the success of the tablets, but I am not sure if diskless systems could really qualify as a ". Post-PC computing system" unless they replace the PCs. Harddiskless computers have been around for quite a while now, but i'm not sure a standard workstation could be replaced by one anytime soon. Even though most data is stored remotely, local work copies are at the foundation of most of the tools we use. These tools would have to be rewritten either to no longer make local copies or to hide their locality from the user. Both of the solutions are nontrivial and their benefits are non-obvious. What is the exact gain of doing a checkout to a remote disk instead of that of my workstation? That i can ligitimately slack off at the coffee machine when the network goes down? But maybe it is just that im not open-minded enough to allow my PC to need anything other than power for me to be productive.

brudgers 16y ago

>"'Post-PC Device' doesn't mean tablet or phone, it means 'No filesystem.'" "No user accessible file system" is probably a more appropriate meaning in terms of Apple (other vendors may vary). Another way of describing the Apple model is that the user cannot access the file system without Apple's explicit permission (e.g. iTunes and MobileMe mentioned elsewhere).