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> What people need to thrive is security the knowledge that if unfortunate events outside of their control happen, that they will be helped to the degree that s

by umvi 7y ago

> What people need to thrive is security the knowledge that if unfortunate events outside of their control happen, that they will be helped to the degree that society is able I don't know if I believe this. It's unpopular, but I think being completely secure may have some negatives. For example, drawing upon my own life experiences, I found it hard to find motivation to be productive when I was completely secure in all my needs. I ended up playing a lot of video games and watching a lot of anime. However, once I lost my training slot in the Air Force and it looked like my cushy military job was no longer guaranteed, it lit a fire under my butt and I was highly motivated to start sharpening my computer industry skills, doing side projects, etc. in case it didn't work out and I had to find a "real job" (and it didn't work out). We didn't need perfect social security to thrive historically. I don't see evidence of people in EU countries with tons of social services thriving. Historically, all we needed to thrive was the promise that hard work, creativity, or both, would be proportionally rewarded. Somewhere along the way we've lost this (or at least part of it). We should work to bring that back, and provide enough social services to help people become self-reliant (if they aren't already).

vsareto 7y ago
>it lit a fire under my butt and I was highly motivated to start sharpening my computer industry skills, doing side projects, etc. in case it didn't work out and I had to find a "real job" (and it didn't work out). I don't know if that will fit a lot of people's idea of thriving (it's highly personal). That's really survival skills so you don't end up homeless. Some really do thrive on chaos, uncertainty, and not being comfortable though. It becomes a real challenge for them and they feel good when they overcome the adversity. Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving. People who can sit quietly and do math or programming or whatever and just learn.
- umvi 7y ago
  > Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving. So the question is, what % of people are like that, and what percentage are like me (complete security I didn't really have to work for robbed my motivation). If only a small % of people become more productive in free complete security, and the majority become less productive under free complete security... is free complete security still worth it?
  - vsareto 7y ago
    Let's say that you failed to gain the skills necessary get a job back then. Would you prefer the worst case scenario of having UBI vs not having UBI? Do we subject some people to homelessness to keep other people motivated? My thoughts are those people can find something else to drive them. I bet at some point you will likely get bored or depressed of simply playing video games and watching anime all day and you'll seek out challenges for yourself.
r00fus 7y ago
Your viewpoint is "unpopular" because it's entirely anecdotal and survivor bias (you're posting here indicates you are at least not in a pure survival state). Taking one's "common sense" anecdotes and applying them to society as a whole is where things get problematic. For the latter you need data and analysis to guide you as well as common sense.
- umvi 7y ago
  UBI is an unproven pie-in-the-sky pipe dream with no strong evidence in its favor (since it has never been adopted, at scale, by a nation or city-state). All of the UBI studies and experiments are highly controlled, small scale, and don't take into account human behavior that happen in real life (greed). Let's see some UBI experiments that fail for once by telling the participants to take advantage of each other however they can, richest man at the end wins. Shouldn't that make UBI unpopular as well? Anecdotal evidence is better than no evidence.
  - r00fus 7y ago
    > UBI is an unproven pie-in-the-sky pipe dream with no strong evidence in its favor The facts differ with your opinion [1]. > Anecdotal evidence is better than no evidence. This attitude is likely what leads to mass adoption of conspiracy theories. Not all of which are false, but most are missing key facts and/or context. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots#Madhya_Pradesh,_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots#Madhya_Pra...
zozbot234 7y ago
> Historically, all we needed to thrive was the promise that hard work, creativity, or both, would be proportionally rewarded. Well, a "cushy military job" isn't really a place where hard work and creativity are rewarded. I'd regard that as a more plausible cause for that lack of motivation, as opposed to simply being secure in one's basic needs.
munificent 7y ago
As in many things in life, the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle and not at the extreme ends. People need enough risk of negative consequences to encourage them to make wise decisions. But they also need enough security (especially in things outside of their control) in order to be able to prioritize long-term goals over short-term ones.

by umvi 7y ago

vsareto 7y ago

>it lit a fire under my butt and I was highly motivated to start sharpening my computer industry skills, doing side projects, etc. in case it didn't work out and I had to find a "real job" (and it didn't work out). I don't know if that will fit a lot of people's idea of thriving (it's highly personal). That's really survival skills so you don't end up homeless. Some really do thrive on chaos, uncertainty, and not being comfortable though. It becomes a real challenge for them and they feel good when they overcome the adversity. Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving. People who can sit quietly and do math or programming or whatever and just learn.

umvi 7y ago
> Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving. So the question is, what % of people are like that, and what percentage are like me (complete security I didn't really have to work for robbed my motivation). If only a small % of people become more productive in free complete security, and the majority become less productive under free complete security... is free complete security still worth it?
- vsareto 7y ago
  Let's say that you failed to gain the skills necessary get a job back then. Would you prefer the worst case scenario of having UBI vs not having UBI? Do we subject some people to homelessness to keep other people motivated? My thoughts are those people can find something else to drive them. I bet at some point you will likely get bored or depressed of simply playing video games and watching anime all day and you'll seek out challenges for yourself.

r00fus 7y ago

Your viewpoint is "unpopular" because it's entirely anecdotal and survivor bias (you're posting here indicates you are at least not in a pure survival state). Taking one's "common sense" anecdotes and applying them to society as a whole is where things get problematic. For the latter you need data and analysis to guide you as well as common sense.

umvi 7y ago
UBI is an unproven pie-in-the-sky pipe dream with no strong evidence in its favor (since it has never been adopted, at scale, by a nation or city-state). All of the UBI studies and experiments are highly controlled, small scale, and don't take into account human behavior that happen in real life (greed). Let's see some UBI experiments that fail for once by telling the participants to take advantage of each other however they can, richest man at the end wins. Shouldn't that make UBI unpopular as well? Anecdotal evidence is better than no evidence.
- r00fus 7y ago
  > UBI is an unproven pie-in-the-sky pipe dream with no strong evidence in its favor The facts differ with your opinion [1]. > Anecdotal evidence is better than no evidence. This attitude is likely what leads to mass adoption of conspiracy theories. Not all of which are false, but most are missing key facts and/or context. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots#Madhya_Pradesh,_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots#Madhya_Pra...

zozbot234 7y ago

> Historically, all we needed to thrive was the promise that hard work, creativity, or both, would be proportionally rewarded. Well, a "cushy military job" isn't really a place where hard work and creativity are rewarded. I'd regard that as a more plausible cause for that lack of motivation, as opposed to simply being secure in one's basic needs.

munificent 7y ago

As in many things in life, the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle and not at the extreme ends. People need enough risk of negative consequences to encourage them to make wise decisions. But they also need enough security (especially in things outside of their control) in order to be able to prioritize long-term goals over short-term ones.