15 ms·

The right supports mail-in ballots with voter-id, and voter-id in general. The left doesn't support that, why?

tcoff91 6y ago
The left doesn't support that because it disproportionately disenfranchises minority voters. Which is the same reason why the right DOES support it.
- Grakel 6y ago
  It's pretty racist to say some groups can't figure out how to get a driver's license.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Nobody made that claim.
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    You are the only one making such a racist claim. Don't put words into other people's mouths, when it's actually just the first thing that popped into YOUR head, and you apparently don't know the true history of racism and voter suppression and Jim Crow laws and poll taxes and the Southern Strategy and dog whistle politics in America. It's pretty racist to deny that history, and pretty ignorant not to know it. It's pretty racist that Republicans pass laws and close DMVs in areas that make it harder for certain groups to get a driver's license. It's also pretty racist of Republicans that they desperately don't want blacks to vote and do everything they can to prevent it, any way they can. That kind of Republican racism is why blacks are predominantly Democratic. Not because blacks foolishly let themselves get "tricked" into voting for Democrats, as the racist right-wing narrative goes. And it's pretty racist for Republicans to try to explain away the reason that most blacks vote Democrat as the result of Democrats trying to "keep them on the plantation", when blacks are perfectly capable of deciding who to vote for all by themselves, and are not "mentally enslaved" children lacking agency who can't be trusted to decide for themselves who has their best interests in mind (and run for office themselves), otherwise they'd be tricked by those sneaky Democrats who want them to vote. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democratic-plantation-became-one-conservatives-favorite-slurs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democr... >How the ‘Democratic plantation’ became one of conservatives’ favorite slurs >Since the 1960s, the right has explained away black Democrats by denying them agency. >In 2017, Candace Owens, then known as the YouTuber Red Pill Black, posted a short video called “How to Escape the Democrat Plantation (an easy guide).” In it, she compared African Americans who were physically enslaved before 1865 to their present-day descendants who, she argued, are mentally enslaved by the Democratic Party. She slammed the unquestionable loyalty that black people hold toward the party, which she argued functions as a plantation, in which people of African descent do the ground level work and receive nothing (or perhaps, just enough) in return. Her efforts eventually spawned the “Blexit” movement, a portmanteau that encouraged black Americans to exit the Democratic Party. [...] >A closer look at the phrase “Democrat plantation” and the divisions that accompany it, however, make clear much of this rhetoric is shallow and ahistorical. It distorts the current state of the relationship between Democrats and African American voters, and deprives the latter of agency, in part because of a failure to adequately understand the historical comparison that this rhetoric purports to make.
SuperFerret 6y ago
Voter ID laws make it easy for certain classes of people to get one and hard for others. It's a tool for voter suppression. Also, we have incredibly low rates of voter fraud thanks to measures that already exist.
striking 6y ago
Because IDs aren't necessarily easy to get and cost money, disenfranchising the poor and those without any other reason to get one. I don't know, does it takes a lot of effort to look up the talking points of the people you disagree with? It implies your viewpoint was achieved without ever having come in contact with an alternative, which is concerning.
rootusrootus 6y ago
> The left doesn't support that, why? Because it's a transparent attempt to reduce the ability of some groups of people to vote. The right pushes for voter ID while simultaneously doing everything possible to reduce the availability of ID. Put the Federal Election Commission in charge of voter ID, make the cards free and make it the mission of the FEC to track down and ensure every qualified citizen has one. Then I support voter ID.
- calvinmorrison 6y ago
  Do you think with 10+ million undocumented immigrants - a not insignificant portion of the population, but not citizenry - that people should not be concerned about ensuring only valid citizens can vote?
  - Kalium 6y ago
    You're absolutely right. There's a vast potential for very real problems. When those problems manifest, we should deal with them. To try to address problems that don't actually exist is absurd overregulation and government overreach. It certainly is wasteful to expend resources on solving problems that don't need solving because they don't exist, isn't it? Is there evidence of voter fraud by undocumented migrants that suggests we have a problem and should act?
    - idontwantit 6y ago
      > When those problems manifest, we should deal with them I think this is one of the key problems with a hyper-conservative government. If your default position is "don't change it" on every issue, then you have a very difficult time solving problems. More liberal governments that frequently change the rules are like startups vs very large corporations. They are more agile and better able to quickly deal with problems as they arise. They are "responsive" in a way conservative government is not. Look at recent statewide rent control measures in California. There was a lot of hand-wringing about what it could mean in this scenario or that scenario, but in the end the response is > When those problems manifest, we should deal with them Which I think is the sentiment of a people who really feel like they have a handle on their government and that it responds to their will.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
akiselev 6y ago
Voter id is often very selective about what counts as a valid ID and it's often coupled with legislative changes and executive policies that selectively make it much harder to get a valid id for a few demographics. Closing down DMVs depending on the district, reducing their working hours, excessive bureaucracy for non-drivers license IDs, charging excessive fees, etc.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
idontwantit 6y ago
Voter ID laws are often used to disenfranchise poorer voters by creating bureaucracy mazes or DMV-like conditions to stop voters from acquiring the necessary credentials. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identification https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/chal... Anecdotally, as someone who was living in poverty before I got into this line of work, I did not have a state-issued ID and did not have time to waste or even the inclination to get one (my state does not have voter id laws). Sure many will go out of their way in order to acquire credentials, but much like email scams, the value of voter suppression is in the marginal success. Lastly, the amount of real voter fraud (well below 10% last I checked) seems minimal vs the amount of people who don't have credentials (about 10% according to the above). I will leave you with this quote: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" Isn't that the meaning of "justice"?
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  The whole world besides Anglo countries is using photo ID to vote. The article basically says people don't have a way to get it in 10 mile radius which is ridiculous. You really think you get ID in Germany everywhere in 10 mile radius? No, you take a bus to nearest city that offers these services.
  - idontwantit 6y ago
    I think your objections are already addressed by the comment
  - Cerium 6y ago
    Whole world? Seems that there are plenty of locations that simply mark your thumb to vote, no ID needed. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
      I thought it's obvious on the context of America we talk about countries that well developed.
specialist 6y ago
My voter registration says "Mike Smith" and my driver's license says "Michael Smith". Would you let me vote? I got married and took my husband's name. I've got mix of paperwork during transition. Would you let me vote? I voted at the same polling location for 30 years. I've never driven a car. The only photo ID I have is my medical card from the VA. Would you let me vote? -- For the record, what The Left demands is modernizing our voter registration infrastructure, like every other mature democracy, mooting this entire debate. Universal automatic voter registration, issue photo ID for all voters, proper audit log for all VRDBs. Which would also be cheaper to admin and nearly error free.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I agree we need modernization. Do you have any links to how we can provide vote tracking/verification and voter eligibility while maintaining anonymity? It seems this type of system would work well for some other subjects.
  - specialist 6y ago
    IIRC, Brookings Institute had a handful of studies. (I'll help you find some when I get back to my computer.) My TLDR: Ballots should be secret. It takes very specific procedures to protect voter privacy, especially with postal ballots. Voter registration and participation (that you voted) are public records, by necessity, with some exceptions (judges, cops, victims, public figures). Voter eligibility should be adjudicated as part of maintaining registration. The biggest flaws with our VRDBs would be fixed by simply adding an eligibility flag, with an audit log. Currently, legally, VRDBs can only contain the most current record for eligible voters. No history. Leading to a lot of data quality problems. False negatives, false positives, purging, caging, and so forth.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      If they can successfully keep judges and cops out of the public registry, then they should be able to to that for everyone - no second rate citizens. I was hoping you had a system that could use something like public/private keys to verify the voter and the vote while remaining anonymous while providing furure result validation through your key.

The left doesn't support that because it disproportionately disenfranchises minority voters. Which is the same reason why the right DOES support it.

Grakel 6y ago
It's pretty racist to say some groups can't figure out how to get a driver's license.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Nobody made that claim.
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  You are the only one making such a racist claim. Don't put words into other people's mouths, when it's actually just the first thing that popped into YOUR head, and you apparently don't know the true history of racism and voter suppression and Jim Crow laws and poll taxes and the Southern Strategy and dog whistle politics in America. It's pretty racist to deny that history, and pretty ignorant not to know it. It's pretty racist that Republicans pass laws and close DMVs in areas that make it harder for certain groups to get a driver's license. It's also pretty racist of Republicans that they desperately don't want blacks to vote and do everything they can to prevent it, any way they can. That kind of Republican racism is why blacks are predominantly Democratic. Not because blacks foolishly let themselves get "tricked" into voting for Democrats, as the racist right-wing narrative goes. And it's pretty racist for Republicans to try to explain away the reason that most blacks vote Democrat as the result of Democrats trying to "keep them on the plantation", when blacks are perfectly capable of deciding who to vote for all by themselves, and are not "mentally enslaved" children lacking agency who can't be trusted to decide for themselves who has their best interests in mind (and run for office themselves), otherwise they'd be tricked by those sneaky Democrats who want them to vote. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democratic-plantation-became-one-conservatives-favorite-slurs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democr... >How the ‘Democratic plantation’ became one of conservatives’ favorite slurs >Since the 1960s, the right has explained away black Democrats by denying them agency. >In 2017, Candace Owens, then known as the YouTuber Red Pill Black, posted a short video called “How to Escape the Democrat Plantation (an easy guide).” In it, she compared African Americans who were physically enslaved before 1865 to their present-day descendants who, she argued, are mentally enslaved by the Democratic Party. She slammed the unquestionable loyalty that black people hold toward the party, which she argued functions as a plantation, in which people of African descent do the ground level work and receive nothing (or perhaps, just enough) in return. Her efforts eventually spawned the “Blexit” movement, a portmanteau that encouraged black Americans to exit the Democratic Party. [...] >A closer look at the phrase “Democrat plantation” and the divisions that accompany it, however, make clear much of this rhetoric is shallow and ahistorical. It distorts the current state of the relationship between Democrats and African American voters, and deprives the latter of agency, in part because of a failure to adequately understand the historical comparison that this rhetoric purports to make.

SuperFerret 6y ago

Voter ID laws make it easy for certain classes of people to get one and hard for others. It's a tool for voter suppression. Also, we have incredibly low rates of voter fraud thanks to measures that already exist.

striking 6y ago

Because IDs aren't necessarily easy to get and cost money, disenfranchising the poor and those without any other reason to get one. I don't know, does it takes a lot of effort to look up the talking points of the people you disagree with? It implies your viewpoint was achieved without ever having come in contact with an alternative, which is concerning.

rootusrootus 6y ago

> The left doesn't support that, why? Because it's a transparent attempt to reduce the ability of some groups of people to vote. The right pushes for voter ID while simultaneously doing everything possible to reduce the availability of ID. Put the Federal Election Commission in charge of voter ID, make the cards free and make it the mission of the FEC to track down and ensure every qualified citizen has one. Then I support voter ID.

calvinmorrison 6y ago
Do you think with 10+ million undocumented immigrants - a not insignificant portion of the population, but not citizenry - that people should not be concerned about ensuring only valid citizens can vote?
- Kalium 6y ago
  You're absolutely right. There's a vast potential for very real problems. When those problems manifest, we should deal with them. To try to address problems that don't actually exist is absurd overregulation and government overreach. It certainly is wasteful to expend resources on solving problems that don't need solving because they don't exist, isn't it? Is there evidence of voter fraud by undocumented migrants that suggests we have a problem and should act?
  - idontwantit 6y ago
    > When those problems manifest, we should deal with them I think this is one of the key problems with a hyper-conservative government. If your default position is "don't change it" on every issue, then you have a very difficult time solving problems. More liberal governments that frequently change the rules are like startups vs very large corporations. They are more agile and better able to quickly deal with problems as they arise. They are "responsive" in a way conservative government is not. Look at recent statewide rent control measures in California. There was a lot of hand-wringing about what it could mean in this scenario or that scenario, but in the end the response is > When those problems manifest, we should deal with them Which I think is the sentiment of a people who really feel like they have a handle on their government and that it responds to their will.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

akiselev 6y ago

Voter id is often very selective about what counts as a valid ID and it's often coupled with legislative changes and executive policies that selectively make it much harder to get a valid id for a few demographics. Closing down DMVs depending on the district, reducing their working hours, excessive bureaucracy for non-drivers license IDs, charging excessive fees, etc.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

idontwantit 6y ago

Voter ID laws are often used to disenfranchise poorer voters by creating bureaucracy mazes or DMV-like conditions to stop voters from acquiring the necessary credentials. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identification https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/chal... Anecdotally, as someone who was living in poverty before I got into this line of work, I did not have a state-issued ID and did not have time to waste or even the inclination to get one (my state does not have voter id laws). Sure many will go out of their way in order to acquire credentials, but much like email scams, the value of voter suppression is in the marginal success. Lastly, the amount of real voter fraud (well below 10% last I checked) seems minimal vs the amount of people who don't have credentials (about 10% according to the above). I will leave you with this quote: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" Isn't that the meaning of "justice"?

9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
The whole world besides Anglo countries is using photo ID to vote. The article basically says people don't have a way to get it in 10 mile radius which is ridiculous. You really think you get ID in Germany everywhere in 10 mile radius? No, you take a bus to nearest city that offers these services.
- idontwantit 6y ago
  I think your objections are already addressed by the comment
- Cerium 6y ago
  Whole world? Seems that there are plenty of locations that simply mark your thumb to vote, no ID needed. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    I thought it's obvious on the context of America we talk about countries that well developed.

specialist 6y ago

My voter registration says "Mike Smith" and my driver's license says "Michael Smith". Would you let me vote? I got married and took my husband's name. I've got mix of paperwork during transition. Would you let me vote? I voted at the same polling location for 30 years. I've never driven a car. The only photo ID I have is my medical card from the VA. Would you let me vote? -- For the record, what The Left demands is modernizing our voter registration infrastructure, like every other mature democracy, mooting this entire debate. Universal automatic voter registration, issue photo ID for all voters, proper audit log for all VRDBs. Which would also be cheaper to admin and nearly error free.

giantg2 6y ago
I agree we need modernization. Do you have any links to how we can provide vote tracking/verification and voter eligibility while maintaining anonymity? It seems this type of system would work well for some other subjects.
- specialist 6y ago
  IIRC, Brookings Institute had a handful of studies. (I'll help you find some when I get back to my computer.) My TLDR: Ballots should be secret. It takes very specific procedures to protect voter privacy, especially with postal ballots. Voter registration and participation (that you voted) are public records, by necessity, with some exceptions (judges, cops, victims, public figures). Voter eligibility should be adjudicated as part of maintaining registration. The biggest flaws with our VRDBs would be fixed by simply adding an eligibility flag, with an audit log. Currently, legally, VRDBs can only contain the most current record for eligible voters. No history. Leading to a lot of data quality problems. False negatives, false positives, purging, caging, and so forth.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    If they can successfully keep judges and cops out of the public registry, then they should be able to to that for everyone - no second rate citizens. I was hoping you had a system that could use something like public/private keys to verify the voter and the vote while remaining anonymous while providing furure result validation through your key.