5 ms·

Is there some part of the way states that already do it are doing it that you take umbrage with?

Armisael16 6y ago
I'm not the person you responded to, but current vote-by-mail procedures do make it impossible to ensure a secret ballot.
- rovolo 6y ago
  Here's the process for WA; which step do you think makes it "impossible" for the ballot to remain secret? 1) You fill out the ballot, there is no identifying information on the ballot. 2) You put the ballot into a privacy sleeve, and then put the ballot into the envelope. 3) You seal and sign the envelope; then put it in the mailbox. 4) Your mail carrier takes the envelope and delivers it to the election commission. 5) The sealed envelopes are examined in person during the counting process to check that the signature is valid. (3rd parties can observe the counting process to make sure procedures are being followed) 6) The ballot in the privacy sleeve are removed from the envelope and placed in a separate box. 7) Boxes of ballots are counted by separate poll workers. (If by "secret ballot" you mean people can sell their vote, mailed ballots can be cancelled with a "cancellation form". You can then request a new ballot by mail, or vote in person.)
  - Armisael16 6y ago
    Selling the ballot was the concern, yes. I don’t see any part of that process that would stop me if I told my employees “I’ll give you $100 if you show me your ballot then send it right away the day before the election”.
    - rovolo 6y ago
      * The employee can cancel the mail-in ballot and vote in person. * The ballots are sent to your home, not your workplace. * Employers can ask for a picture of an in-person ballot. Buying votes is illegal, which dissuades most people from buying votes. Your employees would turn you in, especially since people have very strong feeling about elections due to partisanship.
      - Armisael16 6y ago
        I’m afraid I’m insufficiently familiar with the details of the WA system to continue this. If you vote the day before Election Day and then submit a cancellation form an hour later, will you be able to submit another vote or will the system take too long to process your cancellation?
        rovolo 6y ago
        Apologies, I misread the "Voter Cancellation Form" on the WA website [0] as the "Vote Cancellation Form". I learned of my mistake after searching for information to answer your question. They didn't allow people to recast votes in the recent primary election after candidates dropped from the race. [1] That said, I still think that you're unlikely to have people buying votes. The risk to the employer is going to be higher than the reward because every vote you buy is a potential snitch who could send you to jail. The more likely scenario for swaying votes is an emotionally manipulative/controlling partner. [0] https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/ https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/ [1] https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2020/03/03/washington-state-democratic-primary-ballots-pete-buttigieg-amy-klobuchar/4944021002/ https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2020/03/03/washington-s...
- irrational 6y ago
  That’s not true. There are 2 envelopes. The interior envelope is anonymous. The interior envelope is not opened until mixed up with all the other interior sealed envelopes.
kfrzcode 6y ago
Scenario: I'm living in a household with three roommates, unrelated to me. Maybe they're not granted the right to vote. The mail-in ballot arrives and is completed by one other than myself, without my knowledge. How do you prevent this? Signing the envelope that you return the ballot in would further de-anonymize the vote. I'm asking not out of snarkiness but because I don't know.
- 12xo 6y ago
  What? Signatures are and remain the best way to verify a ballot. It seems you are stuck in digital, the real world is analog, always will be.
  - kfrzcode 6y ago
    If I go to a voting location I can sign a voter roll and establish my presence as a voter, I sign the roll and I get a ballot in exchange (in my jurisdiction). This ballot is then filled in and anonymously submitted into whatever box or diebold machine. With mail-in, a signature is attached to the ballot, which is a different situation. I'm missing something.
    - 12xo 6y ago
      No, not at all the case. All provisional ballots are verified. They are not anonymous, they are always tied to a registered voter or in some cases where they allow same day registration, a verified voter.
    - irrational 6y ago
      You are missing something. The envelope comes in. A person checks that the signature on the envelope matches that of the person the ballot belongs to. If they match, the envelope is opened and the interior sealed envelope is removed. This interior sealed envelope contains no identifying information. That interior sealed envelope is mixed in with all the rest of the interior sealed envelopes (hundreds of thousands to millions of envelopes) so there is no way to identify which ballot belongs to whom. Then the interior sealed envelopes are opened, the ballots are extracted and scanned. All of this is overseen by observers and you can go and watch it if you want.
malandrew 6y ago
What's peculiar about your response is that this is Hacker News and if I had posted a similar question on a topic about how to do some computing operation securely it would be upvoted. Somehow the moment we talk about voting, people throw out all concerns about security.
- lozaning 6y ago
  What's peculiar about your response is that you're the only person that interpreted my question as trying to shut down the discussion as opposed to starting it.
  - malandrew 6y ago
    What's peculiar about the way you started it was using the word "umbrage" even though there wasn't anything about how I originally phrased my question or qualified it that suggested offense or annoyance. Maybe you should choose your words more carefully and understand what they mean before you use them.

I'm not the person you responded to, but current vote-by-mail procedures do make it impossible to ensure a secret ballot.

rovolo 6y ago
Here's the process for WA; which step do you think makes it "impossible" for the ballot to remain secret? 1) You fill out the ballot, there is no identifying information on the ballot. 2) You put the ballot into a privacy sleeve, and then put the ballot into the envelope. 3) You seal and sign the envelope; then put it in the mailbox. 4) Your mail carrier takes the envelope and delivers it to the election commission. 5) The sealed envelopes are examined in person during the counting process to check that the signature is valid. (3rd parties can observe the counting process to make sure procedures are being followed) 6) The ballot in the privacy sleeve are removed from the envelope and placed in a separate box. 7) Boxes of ballots are counted by separate poll workers. (If by "secret ballot" you mean people can sell their vote, mailed ballots can be cancelled with a "cancellation form". You can then request a new ballot by mail, or vote in person.)
- Armisael16 6y ago
  Selling the ballot was the concern, yes. I don’t see any part of that process that would stop me if I told my employees “I’ll give you $100 if you show me your ballot then send it right away the day before the election”.
  - rovolo 6y ago
    * The employee can cancel the mail-in ballot and vote in person. * The ballots are sent to your home, not your workplace. * Employers can ask for a picture of an in-person ballot. Buying votes is illegal, which dissuades most people from buying votes. Your employees would turn you in, especially since people have very strong feeling about elections due to partisanship.
    - Armisael16 6y ago
      I’m afraid I’m insufficiently familiar with the details of the WA system to continue this. If you vote the day before Election Day and then submit a cancellation form an hour later, will you be able to submit another vote or will the system take too long to process your cancellation?
      - rovolo 6y ago
        Apologies, I misread the "Voter Cancellation Form" on the WA website [0] as the "Vote Cancellation Form". I learned of my mistake after searching for information to answer your question. They didn't allow people to recast votes in the recent primary election after candidates dropped from the race. [1] That said, I still think that you're unlikely to have people buying votes. The risk to the employer is going to be higher than the reward because every vote you buy is a potential snitch who could send you to jail. The more likely scenario for swaying votes is an emotionally manipulative/controlling partner. [0] https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/ https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/ [1] https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2020/03/03/washington-state-democratic-primary-ballots-pete-buttigieg-amy-klobuchar/4944021002/ https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2020/03/03/washington-s...
irrational 6y ago
That’s not true. There are 2 envelopes. The interior envelope is anonymous. The interior envelope is not opened until mixed up with all the other interior sealed envelopes.

kfrzcode 6y ago

Scenario: I'm living in a household with three roommates, unrelated to me. Maybe they're not granted the right to vote. The mail-in ballot arrives and is completed by one other than myself, without my knowledge. How do you prevent this? Signing the envelope that you return the ballot in would further de-anonymize the vote. I'm asking not out of snarkiness but because I don't know.

12xo 6y ago
What? Signatures are and remain the best way to verify a ballot. It seems you are stuck in digital, the real world is analog, always will be.
- kfrzcode 6y ago
  If I go to a voting location I can sign a voter roll and establish my presence as a voter, I sign the roll and I get a ballot in exchange (in my jurisdiction). This ballot is then filled in and anonymously submitted into whatever box or diebold machine. With mail-in, a signature is attached to the ballot, which is a different situation. I'm missing something.
  - 12xo 6y ago
    No, not at all the case. All provisional ballots are verified. They are not anonymous, they are always tied to a registered voter or in some cases where they allow same day registration, a verified voter.
  - irrational 6y ago
    You are missing something. The envelope comes in. A person checks that the signature on the envelope matches that of the person the ballot belongs to. If they match, the envelope is opened and the interior sealed envelope is removed. This interior sealed envelope contains no identifying information. That interior sealed envelope is mixed in with all the rest of the interior sealed envelopes (hundreds of thousands to millions of envelopes) so there is no way to identify which ballot belongs to whom. Then the interior sealed envelopes are opened, the ballots are extracted and scanned. All of this is overseen by observers and you can go and watch it if you want.

malandrew 6y ago

What's peculiar about your response is that this is Hacker News and if I had posted a similar question on a topic about how to do some computing operation securely it would be upvoted. Somehow the moment we talk about voting, people throw out all concerns about security.

lozaning 6y ago
What's peculiar about your response is that you're the only person that interpreted my question as trying to shut down the discussion as opposed to starting it.
- malandrew 6y ago
  What's peculiar about the way you started it was using the word "umbrage" even though there wasn't anything about how I originally phrased my question or qualified it that suggested offense or annoyance. Maybe you should choose your words more carefully and understand what they mean before you use them.