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Amazon is successful because they allow people to order cheap consumer goods real fast, sometimes same day and have a great return policy to boot. The typical

Amazon is successful because they allow people to order cheap consumer goods real fast, sometimes same day and have a great return policy to boot. The typical consumer does not care about "Made in U.S.A" vs "Made in China" vs "Made in Taiwan". They do care whether it's $9 vs $27. The typical consumer does not care whether the workers were paid fair wages and given enough bathroom breaks so as not to urinate in a bottle to meet strict deadlines. They do care whether it's $9 vs $27. The typical consumer does not care whether the IP of a company was stolen and cheap copies were made that were defective and buggy compared to the original product. They do care whether it's $9 vs $27. If the $9 product does not work, they can buy 2 more to even break even or just return it and get something cheap instead. Thus, Amazon has figured out how to appeal to the typical consumer. Exploiting workers, suppliers, distributors, the country it's founded in are some of they way they deliver that promise. Jeff Bezos is not the monster here - he's just responding to market forces. Until the fundamental consumer model changes, competing with Amazon is not very logical or effective. It might make people feel good, but not effective. Can the competition provide the same product at $9 while doing all the warm and fuzzy things? That's the real question.

seph-reed 6y ago
> Jeff Bezos is not the monster here - he's just responding to market forces. Market forces are not moral. You don't get a free pass on your actions because you made a bunch of money.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dsabanin 6y ago
  The way different societies organize themselves is they tend to incentivize behavior that is beneficial to their continuation. Society who incentivizes non-beneficial behavior will eventually collapse and be replaced by a more fitting one. If society is to give out free passes for suboptimal behavior to anyone, it's going to be to those who provide it the most value. Kind of like Amazon does to a lot of people right now.
  - harajuku 6y ago
    No, you've just swallowed the marketspeak to the point where you think that societies are actively favoring rational net benefits over short-term, destructive cashouts. Calling unethical behavior on a massive scale "suboptimal" and smoothing over the fallout doesn't make you sound smart and analytical, it means you're not thinking hard enough. Societies organize themselves and collapse all the time--what exactly makes Amazon beneficial to the continuation of our own? It would be beneficial to think critically about what goes on inside.
  - viklove 6y ago
    If that were the case, slavery would still be legal
  - subhobroto 6y ago
    > If society is to give out free passes for suboptimal behavior to anyone, it's going to be to those who provide it the most value. Kind of like Amazon does to a lot of people right now. Right on! I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  America has a weird wealth worship complex, though maybe worship isn't the right word. It's assumed that if you have wealth you are some sort of genius to be listened to about what's the moral right thing to do.
  - d1zzy 6y ago
    It's called a value system. Some things are valued more than others in certain cultures.
- m000 6y ago
  You also don't get a free pass to cry bloody murder after resisting all market regulation efforts and then having your ass handed to you by Jeff Bezos.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
>The typical consumer does not care whether the IP of a company was stolen and cheap copies were made that were defective and buggy compared to the original product. They do care whether it's $9 vs $27. People might not care if they are knowingly buying a counterfeit item, but they certainly do care if they think they are getting a legitimate brand name item and then receive a different (especially inferior) product.
- subhobroto 6y ago
  > People might not care if they are knowingly buying a counterfeit item, but they certainly do care if they think they are getting a legitimate brand name item and then receive a different (especially inferior) product. I personally would be very cautious if I saw a $1500 Gucci handbag on sale for $45 and expected it to be genuine. Have I come across a $1500 Gucci handbag on sale for $45 and it was genuine? Yes, at an auction because a colleague of mine flips these as a side business. Would this pricing be available retail? No. If you're saying someone was sold a $1500 Gucci for $1500 and it turned out to be counterfeit - I feel for them. Solution: Return it and file a chargeback if the seller does not take returns.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I don't understand the relationship between a made up scenario about a gucci bag and my comment. Problem # 1 is the cost of returning an item and chargebacks is very high. I (and hopefully many others) are willing to pay a premium to a vendor that performs quality checks on their vendors. It's the whole reason premium brands exist. Problem # 2 is there exist many items which consumers are not able to easily determine the legitimacy of, for example USB wall outlet AC adapters or batteries and many other small consumer electronic items where inferior parts can be used but are indiscernible to most people.
  - ornornor 6y ago
    That's not what happens with Amazon though. You're buying a widget at 10% less than it sells retail at the nearest big box, and what you receive is either a genuine but returned and obviously used item, or a knock off that someone sent in and that was co-mingled with the real SKUs others sent in. Yes, even if you buy "shipped and sold by Amazon". If you've never seen the original, some knockoffs are very hard to tell apart from the genuine item. They won't perform as well or be as high quality, but if it's your first ever experience with the brand/item, you'll just assume that's what a widget from ACME inc feels like. In that case, there is no way to tell and it is a lottery whether you get what you pay for or something subpar. It's not as obvious as the 1500$ Gucci bag for 45$ from the back of a pickup on the parking lot.
dllthomas 6y ago
A contract killer is also responding to market forces. Sometimes people are willing to pay for things we don't want to allow them, and we judge (and punish) the people who provide them. I'm not taking a position on monstrosity, or lack there of, but the reasoning provided seems flawed.
- tracer4201 6y ago
  Are you saying Amazons business model is comparable to someone who murders people for a living? Lol what?
  - camelite 6y ago
    It's proof by contradiction. He's responding to somebody saying that Bezos is not a monster (because) he is just responding to market forces. But if you follow that logic, neither is a contract killer. But a contract killer is a monster. So, by contradiction, Bezos is not acquitted just because he is responding to market forces.
    - scrimps 6y ago
      What's the difference between having sex and rape?
  - dllthomas 6y ago
    Is your comment motivated by actual confusion, misguided rhetorical posturing, or trolling? If the first, I'm happy to walk you through the reasoning should camelite's comment prove insufficient.
    - tracer4201 6y ago
      I don’t think Amazon is doing anything comparable to “murder”, and it’s disappointing that HN discussions are turning into a Reddit like hive mind to downvote and censor discordant views. RE: “Misguided rhetorical posturing“ and “trolling”. You’re basically writing indirect personal attacks. If you really wanted to “walk me through the reasoning” you could have just posted that reasoning instead of what you actually wrote.
grecy 6y ago
> the competition provide the same product at $9 while doing all the warm and fuzzy things? The other real question is "Will it continue to be legal for Amazon NOT to provide the warm and fuzzy things". In virtually all other developed countries the answer is NO, but with legal bribery (unlimited campaign contributions & lobbying) the US may never change.
three_seagrass 6y ago
Warm and fuzzies go away pretty quickly when you get a counterfeit product. Wal-Mart won the retail game because it won the price war, like you said, but it held the keys to the kingdom for so long because it also enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. Ebay used to be inexpensive and widely used until it was overrun with counterfeits and scams. Amazon is on the same path with it's lax counterfeit enforcement with suppliers and fake reviews.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > Wal-Mart won the retail game because it won the price war, like you said, but it held the keys to the kingdom for so long because it also enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. Wal-Mart is nearly just as guilty of selling shoddy items as Amazon. Wal-Mart has struck deals with brands so that lesser-quality versions of popular products are shipped to Wal-Mart stores than to more upscale shops. These lower-quality versions are not clearly marked as such, and it is difficult for the average consumer to notice how the plastic molding is thinner and less durable – they will only find out when it breaks on them.
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    > enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. I'm not saying Wal-Mart is top tier quality. The point is that their product quality vetting with suppliers is still magnitudes more than what Amazon does.

seph-reed 6y ago

> Jeff Bezos is not the monster here - he's just responding to market forces. Market forces are not moral. You don't get a free pass on your actions because you made a bunch of money.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dsabanin 6y ago
The way different societies organize themselves is they tend to incentivize behavior that is beneficial to their continuation. Society who incentivizes non-beneficial behavior will eventually collapse and be replaced by a more fitting one. If society is to give out free passes for suboptimal behavior to anyone, it's going to be to those who provide it the most value. Kind of like Amazon does to a lot of people right now.
- harajuku 6y ago
  No, you've just swallowed the marketspeak to the point where you think that societies are actively favoring rational net benefits over short-term, destructive cashouts. Calling unethical behavior on a massive scale "suboptimal" and smoothing over the fallout doesn't make you sound smart and analytical, it means you're not thinking hard enough. Societies organize themselves and collapse all the time--what exactly makes Amazon beneficial to the continuation of our own? It would be beneficial to think critically about what goes on inside.
- viklove 6y ago
  If that were the case, slavery would still be legal
- subhobroto 6y ago
  > If society is to give out free passes for suboptimal behavior to anyone, it's going to be to those who provide it the most value. Kind of like Amazon does to a lot of people right now. Right on! I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
three_seagrass 6y ago
America has a weird wealth worship complex, though maybe worship isn't the right word. It's assumed that if you have wealth you are some sort of genius to be listened to about what's the moral right thing to do.
- d1zzy 6y ago
  It's called a value system. Some things are valued more than others in certain cultures.
m000 6y ago
You also don't get a free pass to cry bloody murder after resisting all market regulation efforts and then having your ass handed to you by Jeff Bezos.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

>The typical consumer does not care whether the IP of a company was stolen and cheap copies were made that were defective and buggy compared to the original product. They do care whether it's $9 vs $27. People might not care if they are knowingly buying a counterfeit item, but they certainly do care if they think they are getting a legitimate brand name item and then receive a different (especially inferior) product.

subhobroto 6y ago
> People might not care if they are knowingly buying a counterfeit item, but they certainly do care if they think they are getting a legitimate brand name item and then receive a different (especially inferior) product. I personally would be very cautious if I saw a $1500 Gucci handbag on sale for $45 and expected it to be genuine. Have I come across a $1500 Gucci handbag on sale for $45 and it was genuine? Yes, at an auction because a colleague of mine flips these as a side business. Would this pricing be available retail? No. If you're saying someone was sold a $1500 Gucci for $1500 and it turned out to be counterfeit - I feel for them. Solution: Return it and file a chargeback if the seller does not take returns.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  I don't understand the relationship between a made up scenario about a gucci bag and my comment. Problem # 1 is the cost of returning an item and chargebacks is very high. I (and hopefully many others) are willing to pay a premium to a vendor that performs quality checks on their vendors. It's the whole reason premium brands exist. Problem # 2 is there exist many items which consumers are not able to easily determine the legitimacy of, for example USB wall outlet AC adapters or batteries and many other small consumer electronic items where inferior parts can be used but are indiscernible to most people.
- ornornor 6y ago
  That's not what happens with Amazon though. You're buying a widget at 10% less than it sells retail at the nearest big box, and what you receive is either a genuine but returned and obviously used item, or a knock off that someone sent in and that was co-mingled with the real SKUs others sent in. Yes, even if you buy "shipped and sold by Amazon". If you've never seen the original, some knockoffs are very hard to tell apart from the genuine item. They won't perform as well or be as high quality, but if it's your first ever experience with the brand/item, you'll just assume that's what a widget from ACME inc feels like. In that case, there is no way to tell and it is a lottery whether you get what you pay for or something subpar. It's not as obvious as the 1500$ Gucci bag for 45$ from the back of a pickup on the parking lot.

dllthomas 6y ago

A contract killer is also responding to market forces. Sometimes people are willing to pay for things we don't want to allow them, and we judge (and punish) the people who provide them. I'm not taking a position on monstrosity, or lack there of, but the reasoning provided seems flawed.

tracer4201 6y ago
Are you saying Amazons business model is comparable to someone who murders people for a living? Lol what?
- camelite 6y ago
  It's proof by contradiction. He's responding to somebody saying that Bezos is not a monster (because) he is just responding to market forces. But if you follow that logic, neither is a contract killer. But a contract killer is a monster. So, by contradiction, Bezos is not acquitted just because he is responding to market forces.
  - scrimps 6y ago
    What's the difference between having sex and rape?
- dllthomas 6y ago
  Is your comment motivated by actual confusion, misguided rhetorical posturing, or trolling? If the first, I'm happy to walk you through the reasoning should camelite's comment prove insufficient.
  - tracer4201 6y ago
    I don’t think Amazon is doing anything comparable to “murder”, and it’s disappointing that HN discussions are turning into a Reddit like hive mind to downvote and censor discordant views. RE: “Misguided rhetorical posturing“ and “trolling”. You’re basically writing indirect personal attacks. If you really wanted to “walk me through the reasoning” you could have just posted that reasoning instead of what you actually wrote.

grecy 6y ago

> the competition provide the same product at $9 while doing all the warm and fuzzy things? The other real question is "Will it continue to be legal for Amazon NOT to provide the warm and fuzzy things". In virtually all other developed countries the answer is NO, but with legal bribery (unlimited campaign contributions & lobbying) the US may never change.

three_seagrass 6y ago

Warm and fuzzies go away pretty quickly when you get a counterfeit product. Wal-Mart won the retail game because it won the price war, like you said, but it held the keys to the kingdom for so long because it also enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. Ebay used to be inexpensive and widely used until it was overrun with counterfeits and scams. Amazon is on the same path with it's lax counterfeit enforcement with suppliers and fake reviews.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> Wal-Mart won the retail game because it won the price war, like you said, but it held the keys to the kingdom for so long because it also enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. Wal-Mart is nearly just as guilty of selling shoddy items as Amazon. Wal-Mart has struck deals with brands so that lesser-quality versions of popular products are shipped to Wal-Mart stores than to more upscale shops. These lower-quality versions are not clearly marked as such, and it is difficult for the average consumer to notice how the plastic molding is thinner and less durable – they will only find out when it breaks on them.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  > enforced a minimum quality standard with suppliers. I'm not saying Wal-Mart is top tier quality. The point is that their product quality vetting with suppliers is still magnitudes more than what Amazon does.