4 ms·

The article is about using Machine Learning on the video feeds, not that there are video feeds. And the issue at hand is that ML algorithms can have racial bias

The article is about using Machine Learning on the video feeds, not that there are video feeds. And the issue at hand is that ML algorithms can have racial bias in the classifications.

ReactiveJelly 7y ago
Seems like a red herring. They want you to assume that mass violations of privacy are okay as long as they're not racist. They're also ignoring classism - It's fine if the rights of the working class are violated, as long as they're all violated equally. Never-mind the people who can afford privacy on the free market.
- jon889 7y ago
  I think as long as your in public then it's fine to assume you're being recorded by CCTV. Obviously the government being able to access cameras in your own house like 1984 is not ok. But CCTV in public does reduce crime and help investigations. For example the Central line in London doesn't have CCTV (unlike most of the other lines) and it has the most assaults. https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/central-line-trains-have-no-cctv-on-board-and-the-highest-number-of-reported-sexual-offences-1-5592640 https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/central-line-trains-ha... I think wether you can trust your government to not misuse it (eg tracking minorities) is somewhat separate.
  - the8472 7y ago
    > For example the Central line in London doesn't have CCTV (unlike most of the other lines) and it has the most assaults. So crime just shifted there. If you install CCTV there it shifts somewhere else. That doesn't mean you're decreasing crime. This is a report by the UK home office which finds that CCTV has little to none impact on overall crime rates: https://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~iluetkeb/2006/surveillance/paper/social_effect/CCTV_report.pdf https://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~iluetkeb/2006/surveillance...
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    The idea that you should lose any form of privacy the moment you step outside your home is an extremely dangerous one. The reasons we value privacy do not suddenly cease to apply because you live a normal life. Also, the evidence that CCTV is effective at deterring or solving crime is debatable. There is a plausible alternative theory that it simply moves the crime around. That is OK for you if you live and work in "nice" parts of town, but not so much if you are in the districts where the crime and antisocial behaviour get pushed to.
    - Pick-A-Hill2019 7y ago
      A +1 observation regarding the effectiveness of CCTV being debatable. I used to work in this field and the number of crystal clear views of hoodies and base-ball caps was remarkable. Cameras tend to be mounted up high to deter casual vandalism. As for number plate recognition systems - the ancient trick of stealing a set of number plates from a random vehicle is alive and well. As long as it doesn't ping anything as the car moves along it is effectively a ghost until the theft of the plate is reported. The only time I have heard of this back-firing is when there is a problem with the stolen number plate (e.g. No insurance, Intel markers etc).
      - gruez 7y ago
        Why bother stealing it? All that's going to do is attract attention and get your stolen plate flagged/revoked. Copying someone else's plate achieves the same goal without the unnecessary attention.
        Pick-A-Hill2019 7y ago
        The more advanced A.I systems (talking specifically about number plate recognition systems here) are coded to detect 'time travel' vehicles and flag up simultaneous ANPR (Automated Number Plate Recognition) activations to detect (and prevent) number plate cloning to avoid tax, road worthiness checks etc so they only work as long as the ‘donor’ vehicle doesn’t go past an ANPR camera so in terms of time gained it works out as roughly about the same because people notice either that their plates are missing or a simultaneous ping occurs and they see blue lights in their mirror. If you were taking it from a preplanned use of a false number plate situation - in those sorts of circumstances a hire car and forged documentation is the method du jour.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    The Central Line is also the busiest (most trips, I can't find most passenger-km), so without knowing the number of assaults on the other lines, this is irrelevant.
    - fnord123 7y ago
      Northern and Central are definitely the busiest.
- three_seagrass 7y ago
  When it comes to the police force surveillance, prejudicial bias is more a problem than a red herring. It's true that mass surveillance is an issue but how it is implemented can be an issue as well. I'm curious - how does a wealthy person retain their privacy from this type of mass surveillance but the working class does not?
  - mftrhu 7y ago
    Transportation and shopping come to mind. If you do most of your shopping online you will be less exposed to this kind of mass surveillance; conversely, if you have to use public transportation and walk around, you'll be more exposed to it: not "retain their privacy", but "retain more of their privacy". It's also possible that more affluent neighborhoods have fewer cameras.
    - Isa_Memory 7y ago
      'Accessibility, affordability, advertising, anonymity and anomie, are the five cylinders of the engine of mass addiction' Um Another way to view... Let us take a quick look at a utopian idea: 'Does the government guarants me, that gains come without additional costs ?' (-;
  - asdff 7y ago
    The same way they do now to consume luxury goods and services and avoid papparazo and working folk. Blacked out SUVs and back entrances. You think Kylie Jenner has set foot on an LA sidewalk?
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I've lived in the U.S for over 20 years in multiple regions, I've lived in Denmark for over 20 years, and been around other parts of Europe reasonably much, and I have some experience about how racism works in Brazil. While all these regions are prone to racism, the experiential reality of racism between two places is not the same, and this article's seeming assumption that the racism of the U.S is directly translatable to these different EU cities is ridiculous. Of course if someone uses an algorithm trained on the racism of the U.S in Prague they might get something that anyone viewing the reports would find really weird, so that might be an amusing thing to try. In short the issue at hand is an issue apparently dreamed up by people not realizing that their society's problems are not exactly universal.
- fnord123 7y ago
  Indeed. This is where the discussion should be. The topic of whether we should have cameras everywhere is one conversation. But this one is about how to handle the unintended side effects of ethnic bias based on data and the analysis. You make an excellent point about an algorithm being trained in the US being used in Prague. They might not be applicable since Czech Republic since training an algorithm in what is a few steps up from an apartheid state will of course be doped with the racial biases of that country.
dabbledash 7y ago
As if it would somehow be ok, if only it weren’t racist.
LatteLazy 7y ago
D'oh. Sorry, I read this and the story about Sheffield leaking their while ANPR database and got them confused. I'm an idiot! Do you happen to know, is this the same thing or an earlier (non ML) version? https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/facial-recognition-technology-approved-after-romford-trials-1-6077152 https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/facial-recognition-te...

The article is about using Machine Learning on the video feeds, not that there are video feeds. And the issue at hand is that ML algorithms can have racial bias in the classifications.

ReactiveJelly 7y ago

Seems like a red herring. They want you to assume that mass violations of privacy are okay as long as they're not racist. They're also ignoring classism - It's fine if the rights of the working class are violated, as long as they're all violated equally. Never-mind the people who can afford privacy on the free market.

jon889 7y ago
I think as long as your in public then it's fine to assume you're being recorded by CCTV. Obviously the government being able to access cameras in your own house like 1984 is not ok. But CCTV in public does reduce crime and help investigations. For example the Central line in London doesn't have CCTV (unlike most of the other lines) and it has the most assaults. https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/central-line-trains-have-no-cctv-on-board-and-the-highest-number-of-reported-sexual-offences-1-5592640 https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/central-line-trains-ha... I think wether you can trust your government to not misuse it (eg tracking minorities) is somewhat separate.
- the8472 7y ago
  > For example the Central line in London doesn't have CCTV (unlike most of the other lines) and it has the most assaults. So crime just shifted there. If you install CCTV there it shifts somewhere else. That doesn't mean you're decreasing crime. This is a report by the UK home office which finds that CCTV has little to none impact on overall crime rates: https://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~iluetkeb/2006/surveillance/paper/social_effect/CCTV_report.pdf https://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~iluetkeb/2006/surveillance...
- Silhouette 7y ago
  The idea that you should lose any form of privacy the moment you step outside your home is an extremely dangerous one. The reasons we value privacy do not suddenly cease to apply because you live a normal life. Also, the evidence that CCTV is effective at deterring or solving crime is debatable. There is a plausible alternative theory that it simply moves the crime around. That is OK for you if you live and work in "nice" parts of town, but not so much if you are in the districts where the crime and antisocial behaviour get pushed to.
  - Pick-A-Hill2019 7y ago
    A +1 observation regarding the effectiveness of CCTV being debatable. I used to work in this field and the number of crystal clear views of hoodies and base-ball caps was remarkable. Cameras tend to be mounted up high to deter casual vandalism. As for number plate recognition systems - the ancient trick of stealing a set of number plates from a random vehicle is alive and well. As long as it doesn't ping anything as the car moves along it is effectively a ghost until the theft of the plate is reported. The only time I have heard of this back-firing is when there is a problem with the stolen number plate (e.g. No insurance, Intel markers etc).
    - gruez 7y ago
      Why bother stealing it? All that's going to do is attract attention and get your stolen plate flagged/revoked. Copying someone else's plate achieves the same goal without the unnecessary attention.
      - Pick-A-Hill2019 7y ago
        The more advanced A.I systems (talking specifically about number plate recognition systems here) are coded to detect 'time travel' vehicles and flag up simultaneous ANPR (Automated Number Plate Recognition) activations to detect (and prevent) number plate cloning to avoid tax, road worthiness checks etc so they only work as long as the ‘donor’ vehicle doesn’t go past an ANPR camera so in terms of time gained it works out as roughly about the same because people notice either that their plates are missing or a simultaneous ping occurs and they see blue lights in their mirror. If you were taking it from a preplanned use of a false number plate situation - in those sorts of circumstances a hire car and forged documentation is the method du jour.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  The Central Line is also the busiest (most trips, I can't find most passenger-km), so without knowing the number of assaults on the other lines, this is irrelevant.
  - fnord123 7y ago
    Northern and Central are definitely the busiest.
three_seagrass 7y ago
When it comes to the police force surveillance, prejudicial bias is more a problem than a red herring. It's true that mass surveillance is an issue but how it is implemented can be an issue as well. I'm curious - how does a wealthy person retain their privacy from this type of mass surveillance but the working class does not?
- mftrhu 7y ago
  Transportation and shopping come to mind. If you do most of your shopping online you will be less exposed to this kind of mass surveillance; conversely, if you have to use public transportation and walk around, you'll be more exposed to it: not "retain their privacy", but "retain more of their privacy". It's also possible that more affluent neighborhoods have fewer cameras.
  - Isa_Memory 7y ago
    'Accessibility, affordability, advertising, anonymity and anomie, are the five cylinders of the engine of mass addiction' Um Another way to view... Let us take a quick look at a utopian idea: 'Does the government guarants me, that gains come without additional costs ?' (-;
- asdff 7y ago
  The same way they do now to consume luxury goods and services and avoid papparazo and working folk. Blacked out SUVs and back entrances. You think Kylie Jenner has set foot on an LA sidewalk?

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

I've lived in the U.S for over 20 years in multiple regions, I've lived in Denmark for over 20 years, and been around other parts of Europe reasonably much, and I have some experience about how racism works in Brazil. While all these regions are prone to racism, the experiential reality of racism between two places is not the same, and this article's seeming assumption that the racism of the U.S is directly translatable to these different EU cities is ridiculous. Of course if someone uses an algorithm trained on the racism of the U.S in Prague they might get something that anyone viewing the reports would find really weird, so that might be an amusing thing to try. In short the issue at hand is an issue apparently dreamed up by people not realizing that their society's problems are not exactly universal.

fnord123 7y ago
Indeed. This is where the discussion should be. The topic of whether we should have cameras everywhere is one conversation. But this one is about how to handle the unintended side effects of ethnic bias based on data and the analysis. You make an excellent point about an algorithm being trained in the US being used in Prague. They might not be applicable since Czech Republic since training an algorithm in what is a few steps up from an apartheid state will of course be doped with the racial biases of that country.

dabbledash 7y ago

As if it would somehow be ok, if only it weren’t racist.

LatteLazy 7y ago

D'oh. Sorry, I read this and the story about Sheffield leaking their while ANPR database and got them confused. I'm an idiot! Do you happen to know, is this the same thing or an earlier (non ML) version? https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/facial-recognition-technology-approved-after-romford-trials-1-6077152 https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/facial-recognition-te...