12 ms·

A little-known airline has linked Cairo and Tel Aviv for decades

205 points by CaptainZapp 6y ago

9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
I've actually flown Air Sinai once! And not from Cairo to Tel Aviv, but to Yasser Arafat International aka Gaza Airport (GZA). The plane was a standard 737, but completely unmarked, sitting in a remote bus bay far from the terminal. Load was abysmal, maybe 20 or so people. Service was the usual surly Egyptair (aka "Misery Air", Misr being the Arabic name for Egypt) experience, but it was a short flight of only an hour or so. On arrival at GZA, we were driven over to the nearby Rafah border, herded into a holding area, instructed to identify and open our luggage, and then moved to a different room to be frisked and interrogated by Israeli security while another set of guards pawed through the bags, sight unseen. All staff involved were very much not in a hurry, and all in all, it took about four hours (!) for the 20 of us to go from wheels on the ground to getting into the airport terminal, through Palestinian immigration and then Gaza proper. And I didn't even get a passport stamp. (I did get one from the Erez border when crossing by land into Israel proper later, which raised some eyebrows later when leaving Israel...) At the time, the airport served around 2 flights per day (Cairo and Amman, Jordan, IIRC), but the departures board optimistically listed a whole slew of fantasy flights from all over the Arab world and Europe (Milan! Istanbul!). I remember seeing a school group on a tour through this airport and thinking that odds are very high that all these kids here will live their lives without ever leaving this 40x6 km slice of land (large chunks of which are off-limits buffer areas), packed with 2 million Palestinians living cheek to jowl. Shortly thereafter in 2000, the al-Aqsa Intifada started and the airport was bombed by Israeli fighters. It's been in ruins ever since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Ai...
- yoavm 6y ago
  Fascinating story. Do you care giving more background? What year was this? and what brought you to this rare flight in first place? were you part of some delegation? The sad truth is that you were probably right regarding the kids.
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    I was actually planning to go from Cairo to Tel Aviv, but for some reason that flight was not available and I wasn't in a hurry, so I figured I'd go via Gaza instead. I also happened to know somebody who could take me around Gaza and drive me out to Israel as well, since without this the logistics would have been very complicated. This was 2000, shortly before the intifada broke out and travel like this became near-impossible.
    - yoavm 6y ago
      Thank you for your response. It's so unfortunate to think that 20 years later, instead of having the situation improved, a story like "I wanted to go to TLV but there was no flight so I flew to GZA instead" sounds completely unbelievable.
- fortran77 6y ago
  There's plenty of other places where people are living much denser: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_popul... Monaco's density is higher, and it's considered a paradise: https://www.infoplease.com/world/population-statistics/population-density-square-mile-countries https://www.infoplease.com/world/population-statistics/popul... And many people can and do take vacations. In fact, that's how coronoavirus entered gaza -- from someone returning from Pakistan on Vacation: https://www.geo.tv/latest/278852-gazas-two-confirmed-coronavirus-patients-attended-tablighi-ijtema-in-pakistan https://www.geo.tv/latest/278852-gazas-two-confirmed-coronav...
  - yoavm 6y ago
    It's unclear to me what are you trying to suggest. The parent comment never said Gaza was the densest place, or even that density == hell. Are you saying that Gaza is a sparsely populated paradise? Yeah, some people take vacations. It's often impossible to do, and those people are by far not even close to being the majority.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - fortran77 6y ago
      The post I was responding to said: > that odds are very high that all these kids here will live their lives without ever leaving this 40x6 km slice of land (large chunks of which are off-limits buffer areas), packed with 2 million Palestinians living cheek to jowl. I was giving some other information. Don't assume bad intent. One of my 4 grandparents was born in Gaza City in 1909, and left in 1929 when he was kicked out.
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    Monaco's density is offset by the fact that it has the second highest GDP per capita (~$150,000 per person) of any country in the world. Also its borders aren't constantly shrinking.
- koboll 6y ago
  The wiki page for the conflict that included that bombing is wild. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada >High numbers of casualties were caused among civilians as well as combatants. Now there's a sentence that, you can tell, has had its wording viciously fought over in a Talk page, resulting in the garbled passive-voice abomination left standing.
  - seemslegit 6y ago
    How would you have it phrased ? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties "An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished"
    - gumby 6y ago
      I think the difference between the two cases is in your example a large number of different incidents were involved while the OP’s example concerns a single incident (within a wider conflict). Without taking sides I can see how difficult it can be to find wording that various interests can tolerate.
      - seemslegit 6y ago
        What single incident ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada says it lasted "4 years, 4 months, 1 week and 4 days" It also has the Wikipedia standard conflict "Casualties and losses" tally.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - KineticLensman 6y ago
      >> were caused > How would you have it phrased? Without commenting on this particular event, the passive voice typically doesn't identify the actor and can thus be used to omit or obscure responsibility. Consider the classic 'mistakes were made' vs. active alternatives such as 'we made mistakes' or 'they made mistakes'.
- aaron695 6y ago
  > And I didn't even get a passport stamp. This seems normal now in Israel. But you did have to ask for it not to be stamped previously, which rumour was it annoyed them, but in reality most people must have asked I think they were always cranky. ie. - https://againstthecompass.com/en/avoid-israeli-passport-stamp/ https://againstthecompass.com/en/avoid-israeli-passport-stam...
throw93232 6y ago
Such ghost flights are relatively common, for example from London https://simpleflying.com/the-story-behind-london-heathrows-ghost-flights/ https://simpleflying.com/the-story-behind-london-heathrows-g...
- simonh 6y ago
  The Air Sinai flights aren't ghosts in that sense, they can be booked and do carry passengers, they're just very low key.
- furyg3 6y ago
  This is quite different. The ghost flights you describe are empty flights, only flown with a skeleton crew to avoid losing an airport slot. The ghost airline in the article is one that flies actual paying passengers, but isn't advertised, has no markings, has (basically) no online presence, and isn't clearly listed on airport departure screens.
  - jahn716 6y ago
    The way you describe it is almost like public transport or something. Do people have to pass security measures (no real mention of it in article)?
    - prostheticvamp 6y ago
      If you mean airport screenings, one presumes the usual pre-gate screenings. If you mean visas and the like, also yes; to go from Egypt to Israel requires both an exit visa from Egypt and a tourist visa from Israel.
      - vinay427 6y ago
        Minor correction: Egyptians (those traveling on a standard Egyptian passport) require those things, not every other traveler, according to the article. Most travelers require a visa to Israel except for the usual suspects [1], and I assume Egypt doesn't mandate exit visas for most if not all non-Egyptians. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Israel
MichaelApproved 6y ago
The article said the planes were unmarked but I went looking for pictures anyway and found some photos. Here’s one from the 1980s with markings. https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Sinai/Boeing-737-266-Adv/0472889/L https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Sinai/Boeing-737-266-Adv... Unmarked photos are here. https://onemileatatime.com/air-sinai/ https://onemileatatime.com/air-sinai/
LatteLazy 6y ago
I wonder if it's profitable...
- chx 6y ago
  The prices are crazy high but also I would suspect a route which props up peace at the Middle East would have no trouble finding secret government subsidiaries...
  - wolfgke 6y ago
    > I would suspect a route which props up peace at the Middle East would have no trouble finding secret government subsidiaries... I am not so sure about that. If all (or at least most) sides wanted peace, we already would have. The problem is: all sides only want peace on their terms and there do not seem to exist "common peace conditions" which all (or at least most) involved countries and organizations are okay with.
    - toyg 6y ago
      You are making a general point, but this is an actual issue in a treaty two countries already signed and that both sides (by which I mean Egyptian and Israeli governments, nobody else) want to stay valid. Chances are that there are dedicated budget items somewhere in the bowels of both governments, far from prying eyes.
      - chx 6y ago
        > by which I mean Egyptian and Israeli governments, nobody else Oh there a LOT of other players, most importantly the USA here. If you want to paint a 10000 ft picture of the last few decades, it's the USA stuffing the Israel with enough money so the real crazies can't raise to power. Unleashing the full military might of Israel in a traditional war again would be absolutely horrible: they have armed unmanned ground vehicles, main battle tanks which can intercept even the most advanced MANPADS and more.
        6y ago
z303 6y ago
A trip report of flying them https://youtu.be/v8O0WUwiweQ https://youtu.be/v8O0WUwiweQ
sam_goody 6y ago
There was also a bus route from Tel Aviv to Cairo, opened in 1977 as a result of another peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. It didn't last very long (a few years), though you can still technically go the whole way by multiple busses. https://www.egged.co.il/Days-Article-10228-A-tale-of-two-cities-Egged-s-historic-line-to-Cairo.aspx https://www.egged.co.il/Days-Article-10228-A-tale-of-two-cit...

205 points by CaptainZapp 6y ago

I've actually flown Air Sinai once! And not from Cairo to Tel Aviv, but to Yasser Arafat International aka Gaza Airport (GZA). The plane was a standard 737, but completely unmarked, sitting in a remote bus bay far from the terminal. Load was abysmal, maybe 20 or so people. Service was the usual surly Egyptair (aka "Misery Air", Misr being the Arabic name for Egypt) experience, but it was a short flight of only an hour or so. On arrival at GZA, we were driven over to the nearby Rafah border, herded into a holding area, instructed to identify and open our luggage, and then moved to a different room to be frisked and interrogated by Israeli security while another set of guards pawed through the bags, sight unseen. All staff involved were very much not in a hurry, and all in all, it took about four hours (!) for the 20 of us to go from wheels on the ground to getting into the airport terminal, through Palestinian immigration and then Gaza proper. And I didn't even get a passport stamp. (I did get one from the Erez border when crossing by land into Israel proper later, which raised some eyebrows later when leaving Israel...) At the time, the airport served around 2 flights per day (Cairo and Amman, Jordan, IIRC), but the departures board optimistically listed a whole slew of fantasy flights from all over the Arab world and Europe (Milan! Istanbul!). I remember seeing a school group on a tour through this airport and thinking that odds are very high that all these kids here will live their lives without ever leaving this 40x6 km slice of land (large chunks of which are off-limits buffer areas), packed with 2 million Palestinians living cheek to jowl. Shortly thereafter in 2000, the al-Aqsa Intifada started and the airport was bombed by Israeli fighters. It's been in ruins ever since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Ai...

yoavm 6y ago
Fascinating story. Do you care giving more background? What year was this? and what brought you to this rare flight in first place? were you part of some delegation? The sad truth is that you were probably right regarding the kids.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  I was actually planning to go from Cairo to Tel Aviv, but for some reason that flight was not available and I wasn't in a hurry, so I figured I'd go via Gaza instead. I also happened to know somebody who could take me around Gaza and drive me out to Israel as well, since without this the logistics would have been very complicated. This was 2000, shortly before the intifada broke out and travel like this became near-impossible.
  - yoavm 6y ago
    Thank you for your response. It's so unfortunate to think that 20 years later, instead of having the situation improved, a story like "I wanted to go to TLV but there was no flight so I flew to GZA instead" sounds completely unbelievable.
fortran77 6y ago
There's plenty of other places where people are living much denser: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_popul... Monaco's density is higher, and it's considered a paradise: https://www.infoplease.com/world/population-statistics/population-density-square-mile-countries https://www.infoplease.com/world/population-statistics/popul... And many people can and do take vacations. In fact, that's how coronoavirus entered gaza -- from someone returning from Pakistan on Vacation: https://www.geo.tv/latest/278852-gazas-two-confirmed-coronavirus-patients-attended-tablighi-ijtema-in-pakistan https://www.geo.tv/latest/278852-gazas-two-confirmed-coronav...
- yoavm 6y ago
  It's unclear to me what are you trying to suggest. The parent comment never said Gaza was the densest place, or even that density == hell. Are you saying that Gaza is a sparsely populated paradise? Yeah, some people take vacations. It's often impossible to do, and those people are by far not even close to being the majority.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fortran77 6y ago
    The post I was responding to said: > that odds are very high that all these kids here will live their lives without ever leaving this 40x6 km slice of land (large chunks of which are off-limits buffer areas), packed with 2 million Palestinians living cheek to jowl. I was giving some other information. Don't assume bad intent. One of my 4 grandparents was born in Gaza City in 1909, and left in 1929 when he was kicked out.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  Monaco's density is offset by the fact that it has the second highest GDP per capita (~$150,000 per person) of any country in the world. Also its borders aren't constantly shrinking.
koboll 6y ago
The wiki page for the conflict that included that bombing is wild. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada >High numbers of casualties were caused among civilians as well as combatants. Now there's a sentence that, you can tell, has had its wording viciously fought over in a Talk page, resulting in the garbled passive-voice abomination left standing.
- seemslegit 6y ago
  How would you have it phrased ? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties "An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished"
  - gumby 6y ago
    I think the difference between the two cases is in your example a large number of different incidents were involved while the OP’s example concerns a single incident (within a wider conflict). Without taking sides I can see how difficult it can be to find wording that various interests can tolerate.
    - seemslegit 6y ago
      What single incident ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada says it lasted "4 years, 4 months, 1 week and 4 days" It also has the Wikipedia standard conflict "Casualties and losses" tally.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    >> were caused > How would you have it phrased? Without commenting on this particular event, the passive voice typically doesn't identify the actor and can thus be used to omit or obscure responsibility. Consider the classic 'mistakes were made' vs. active alternatives such as 'we made mistakes' or 'they made mistakes'.
aaron695 6y ago
> And I didn't even get a passport stamp. This seems normal now in Israel. But you did have to ask for it not to be stamped previously, which rumour was it annoyed them, but in reality most people must have asked I think they were always cranky. ie. - https://againstthecompass.com/en/avoid-israeli-passport-stamp/ https://againstthecompass.com/en/avoid-israeli-passport-stam...

throw93232 6y ago

Such ghost flights are relatively common, for example from London https://simpleflying.com/the-story-behind-london-heathrows-ghost-flights/ https://simpleflying.com/the-story-behind-london-heathrows-g...

simonh 6y ago
The Air Sinai flights aren't ghosts in that sense, they can be booked and do carry passengers, they're just very low key.
furyg3 6y ago
This is quite different. The ghost flights you describe are empty flights, only flown with a skeleton crew to avoid losing an airport slot. The ghost airline in the article is one that flies actual paying passengers, but isn't advertised, has no markings, has (basically) no online presence, and isn't clearly listed on airport departure screens.
- jahn716 6y ago
  The way you describe it is almost like public transport or something. Do people have to pass security measures (no real mention of it in article)?
  - prostheticvamp 6y ago
    If you mean airport screenings, one presumes the usual pre-gate screenings. If you mean visas and the like, also yes; to go from Egypt to Israel requires both an exit visa from Egypt and a tourist visa from Israel.
    - vinay427 6y ago
      Minor correction: Egyptians (those traveling on a standard Egyptian passport) require those things, not every other traveler, according to the article. Most travelers require a visa to Israel except for the usual suspects [1], and I assume Egypt doesn't mandate exit visas for most if not all non-Egyptians. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Israel

MichaelApproved 6y ago

The article said the planes were unmarked but I went looking for pictures anyway and found some photos. Here’s one from the 1980s with markings. https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Sinai/Boeing-737-266-Adv/0472889/L https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Sinai/Boeing-737-266-Adv... Unmarked photos are here. https://onemileatatime.com/air-sinai/ https://onemileatatime.com/air-sinai/

LatteLazy 6y ago

I wonder if it's profitable...

chx 6y ago
The prices are crazy high but also I would suspect a route which props up peace at the Middle East would have no trouble finding secret government subsidiaries...
- wolfgke 6y ago
  > I would suspect a route which props up peace at the Middle East would have no trouble finding secret government subsidiaries... I am not so sure about that. If all (or at least most) sides wanted peace, we already would have. The problem is: all sides only want peace on their terms and there do not seem to exist "common peace conditions" which all (or at least most) involved countries and organizations are okay with.
  - toyg 6y ago
    You are making a general point, but this is an actual issue in a treaty two countries already signed and that both sides (by which I mean Egyptian and Israeli governments, nobody else) want to stay valid. Chances are that there are dedicated budget items somewhere in the bowels of both governments, far from prying eyes.
    - chx 6y ago
      > by which I mean Egyptian and Israeli governments, nobody else Oh there a LOT of other players, most importantly the USA here. If you want to paint a 10000 ft picture of the last few decades, it's the USA stuffing the Israel with enough money so the real crazies can't raise to power. Unleashing the full military might of Israel in a traditional war again would be absolutely horrible: they have armed unmanned ground vehicles, main battle tanks which can intercept even the most advanced MANPADS and more.
      - 6y ago

z303 6y ago

A trip report of flying them https://youtu.be/v8O0WUwiweQ https://youtu.be/v8O0WUwiweQ

sam_goody 6y ago

There was also a bus route from Tel Aviv to Cairo, opened in 1977 as a result of another peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. It didn't last very long (a few years), though you can still technically go the whole way by multiple busses. https://www.egged.co.il/Days-Article-10228-A-tale-of-two-cities-Egged-s-historic-line-to-Cairo.aspx https://www.egged.co.il/Days-Article-10228-A-tale-of-two-cit...