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We have been in Vietnam since March 8th. Prior to that we were in Thailand. The response of these two neighbouring countries is night and day. Authoritarian go

by moltar 7y ago

We have been in Vietnam since March 8th. Prior to that we were in Thailand. The response of these two neighbouring countries is night and day. Authoritarian governments can shine during the crisis. In the meantime, Thailand is in a messy political situation and has lost control of the situation. When we arrived, on March 8th, there were stations at the airport doing temperature checks. Immediately quarantining anyone with a fever. They also collected extra info on all arrivals for contact tracing. Majority (~ 80%) of locals were taking it seriously and were wearing masks voluntarily. And they were really adamant about us wearing masks. Our condo had free masks and sanitizer in the lobby. They were also doing home visits of people who have arrived starting from March 8th. But we didn’t get a visit. I’m guessing they were working backwards and just never made it to these earlier arrivals. Overall I’m very impressed with the way Vietnam handled the situation. But at the same time, I can’t believe these numbers. I have no concrete evidence, but just feels too low. There was A LOT of contact. Many businesses continued operating. I know of a software office that continued asking people to come into the office and the last week, when permission was given to work from home. Construction was in full force. Most didn’t wear any masks. Many other businesses remained operating and didn’t shutdown.

JCharante 7y ago
I can believe it when a single confirmed case lands almost a thousand people in quarantine. There's not just the fear of getting the virus, there's the fear of being sent off to a quarantine facility for two weeks if you are in contact with enough people that you end up on an F0's F1 list. And then if you're F2 you still must stay at home, and your neighborhood police ward will check up on you (and the neighborhood snitch on the payroll probably will keep an eye out for you too). There are still villages under lockdown and just a month ago a heavily trafficked road was locked down with its inhabitants stuck at home just two kilometers from the center of the capital city. If a Michigan style protest happened here everyone at the protest would be declared F1 because there's bound to be an F0 in the crowd, everyone the protesters have come into contact with with, including staff at businesses or restaurants, co workers, delivery drivers, other diners at the same restaurants, other people shopping at the same store at the same time as them will be declared F2 and have to stay at home. Then they will do three more rounds of recursive contact tracing and monitor those people in case others start showing symptoms. I've had a dozen friends wait out quarantine at military camps and two had their quarantine period extended when their roommates started showing symptoms (but ended up not being positive). Heck if you go to a pharmacy to buy cold or flu medication the pharmacy will report you to the police so they can monitor your symptoms (after patient 247 infamously had a fever, took medication, then went to a bar to celebrate beating his fever). It's almost a police state with the perfect set of tools to fight the virus, and the success of the government has been really effective in getting people to feel patriotic. That does provide perverse incentives going forward. We can hope they remain truthful. At the end of the day we know that the measures that have been undertaken have been some of the best in the world and that not everyone in other countries would tolerate such measures. Also, please download the Bluezone app. This plea goes out to any other expats or immigrants in the country. We need contact tracing to be ready for the next wave.
- moltar 7y ago
  Great info, didn’t know about the rating system.
  - JCharante 7y ago
    Yes there is the F0-F5 system. If you download ncovi or the smart city Hanoi app, you can see on a map where F0 have visited, and where F0 and F1 are (F1 are in clusters because they're at quarantine camps). Originally they used to publish data on F2 but a few weeks ago they started only updating F0-F1. Additionally you can view https://ncov.moh.gov.vn https://ncov.moh.gov.vn to see the status of all patients, see how many F1 and F2 there are, and see how many people are being quarantined. You can also enable notifications to get a notification whenever there's an announcement (which is usually for when they are announcing nee cases or have news related to lockdowns)
- longnguyen 7y ago
  Not sure things get better now but there were a few security issues with Bluezone app. I would not recommend installing it at the moment
bogomipz 7y ago
Are you traveling for pleasure? What's the current situation then? Outside of the two week lock down in April have you largely been able to move around and see different parts of the country as a normal tourist? I had a trip planned soonish which is why I ask. It's been hard to get information from the news on whether that trip would still be worth making in late May or early June. I'd be curious to get your input.
- moltar 7y ago
  I’m here for pleasure yeah. I’m in Da Nang. I was able to move around even during the lockdown. It was just nowhere to go, except a grocery store. But I went for solo walks. I went to the beach, where there were no guards. I’ve seen locals surfing too in some more discrete areas. Right now everything is open. Business as usual. Except large gatherings, like concerts, clubs and so on. The only restrictions that affects me right now is having to wear masks in public places, like a grocery store or a bank. But restaurants don’t require masks. Walking on the street can be done without masks too. As for travelling here. I’m not sure if it’s possible logistically. Are there any inbound flights? Would you need to quarantine for 14 days? Is it self quarantine or at a government facility with lots of other people?
  - JCharante 7y ago
    It's at a government facility unless you pay for a private hotel (which I believe Samsung did for its 300 staff that flew in last week). I really don't see the borders opening up to non-citizens next month because it's expensive to quarantine all incoming travelers (and the people working at the facilities don't see their families for months). I really hope it can happen this summer, even if we have to pay for it, but first we have to determine if there's going to be a third wave or not from easing away from Directive 16's restrictions.
    - bogomipz 7y ago
      So there is no option to self-quarantine by booking a hotel in your arrival city for two weeks?
ekianjo 7y ago
> Authoritarian governments can shine during the crisis Pretty bold claim as China did not fare too well and keeps lying from the beginning about everything.
- moltar 7y ago
  I think they did well. You have to consider the environment they are operating in. Very dense living conditions. Way more commingling of citizens. And the sheer population alone.
  - yomly 7y ago
    Also China was the epicentre. Other governments and scientists had an extra two months to think about the problem.
- MagnumOpus 7y ago
  It started in the middle of China and the still only have 2 deaths/million vs 200/million in the US or UK. (And even if they lied and the number of deaths is ten times bigger, that is still an order of magnitude better than the US handled it.)
- np_tedious 7y ago
  Did fairly well after the fact, sure. Still messed up massively by letting (if you believe wet markets) or causing (if you believe lab was involved) the virus to start existing.
- unsignedint 7y ago
  It's more of Authoritarian governments with competent leadership. Result would be highly polarizing. But where correct decisions are made, Authoritarian governments would have easier time controlling populous. (and of course, these type of governments tend to be able to without/control information that is considered negative to them, too.)
LB232323 7y ago
> Authoritarian governments can really shine See how they shine in Hong Kong, see how the slave camps shine. How fondly the world remembers the shining of Germany and Russia. What light was shining there? How quickly fear has turned men into worms.
- jhanschoo 7y ago
  I think your criticism is misplaced, since parent was discussing in the narrow context about how effective an authoritarian government in keeping its populace safe from the virus. But the parent comment's claim also has issues too. Whereas Vietnam was able to handle this is helped by its state authority, just looking at China and Russia and Iran shows that authoritarianism alone cannot explain at all why Vietnam seems to be doing well.
- c0nducktr 7y ago
  Is your idea of masculinity just not caring about anyone except yourself? Because that doesn't make you much of a man in my eyes. We're dealing with a pandemic. You're not brave for not worrying about it, you're careless and selfish. Those have never seemed like masculine qualities to me.
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    Your take on his values is insulting.
WildGreenLeave 7y ago
I cannot say anything about how they handled it in general with lockdowns and all of that. But there is a story how they quarantined multiple dutch (and other nationalities) people in a dirty hotel guarded by the army[0]. I mean .. yeah they may do well, but I'd prefer the messy political situation that 'has lost control of the situation' over getting locked up by the Vietnamese government. I was in Thailand at the time of the outbreak and flew back at the beginning of this month, so I agree that I'm a bit biased. But I was supposed to fly to Vietnam for a few days (and Korea) but decided to not go since unlike Thailand this story put me off and I applied for a Visa extension in Thailand instead. I don't see how Thailand lost control of the situation. Furthermore, at least in Thailand I didn't have to worry about getting locked up. All other extra step the Vietnamese government did is also something Thailand did. Obviously we are discussing something based on our own perception and based on numbers that may or may not be true. So in the end it doesn't change anything and I don't want to say you are wrong. I'm merely trying to put things in perspective. :) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/british-couple-contract-virus-on-flight-from-heathrow-to-vietnam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/british-couple...
- basch 7y ago
  every country seems to be prioritizing lives, freedom, and economy in different orders.

by moltar 7y ago

JCharante 7y ago

I can believe it when a single confirmed case lands almost a thousand people in quarantine. There's not just the fear of getting the virus, there's the fear of being sent off to a quarantine facility for two weeks if you are in contact with enough people that you end up on an F0's F1 list. And then if you're F2 you still must stay at home, and your neighborhood police ward will check up on you (and the neighborhood snitch on the payroll probably will keep an eye out for you too). There are still villages under lockdown and just a month ago a heavily trafficked road was locked down with its inhabitants stuck at home just two kilometers from the center of the capital city. If a Michigan style protest happened here everyone at the protest would be declared F1 because there's bound to be an F0 in the crowd, everyone the protesters have come into contact with with, including staff at businesses or restaurants, co workers, delivery drivers, other diners at the same restaurants, other people shopping at the same store at the same time as them will be declared F2 and have to stay at home. Then they will do three more rounds of recursive contact tracing and monitor those people in case others start showing symptoms. I've had a dozen friends wait out quarantine at military camps and two had their quarantine period extended when their roommates started showing symptoms (but ended up not being positive). Heck if you go to a pharmacy to buy cold or flu medication the pharmacy will report you to the police so they can monitor your symptoms (after patient 247 infamously had a fever, took medication, then went to a bar to celebrate beating his fever). It's almost a police state with the perfect set of tools to fight the virus, and the success of the government has been really effective in getting people to feel patriotic. That does provide perverse incentives going forward. We can hope they remain truthful. At the end of the day we know that the measures that have been undertaken have been some of the best in the world and that not everyone in other countries would tolerate such measures. Also, please download the Bluezone app. This plea goes out to any other expats or immigrants in the country. We need contact tracing to be ready for the next wave.

moltar 7y ago
Great info, didn’t know about the rating system.
- JCharante 7y ago
  Yes there is the F0-F5 system. If you download ncovi or the smart city Hanoi app, you can see on a map where F0 have visited, and where F0 and F1 are (F1 are in clusters because they're at quarantine camps). Originally they used to publish data on F2 but a few weeks ago they started only updating F0-F1. Additionally you can view https://ncov.moh.gov.vn https://ncov.moh.gov.vn to see the status of all patients, see how many F1 and F2 there are, and see how many people are being quarantined. You can also enable notifications to get a notification whenever there's an announcement (which is usually for when they are announcing nee cases or have news related to lockdowns)
longnguyen 7y ago
Not sure things get better now but there were a few security issues with Bluezone app. I would not recommend installing it at the moment

bogomipz 7y ago

Are you traveling for pleasure? What's the current situation then? Outside of the two week lock down in April have you largely been able to move around and see different parts of the country as a normal tourist? I had a trip planned soonish which is why I ask. It's been hard to get information from the news on whether that trip would still be worth making in late May or early June. I'd be curious to get your input.

moltar 7y ago
I’m here for pleasure yeah. I’m in Da Nang. I was able to move around even during the lockdown. It was just nowhere to go, except a grocery store. But I went for solo walks. I went to the beach, where there were no guards. I’ve seen locals surfing too in some more discrete areas. Right now everything is open. Business as usual. Except large gatherings, like concerts, clubs and so on. The only restrictions that affects me right now is having to wear masks in public places, like a grocery store or a bank. But restaurants don’t require masks. Walking on the street can be done without masks too. As for travelling here. I’m not sure if it’s possible logistically. Are there any inbound flights? Would you need to quarantine for 14 days? Is it self quarantine or at a government facility with lots of other people?
- JCharante 7y ago
  It's at a government facility unless you pay for a private hotel (which I believe Samsung did for its 300 staff that flew in last week). I really don't see the borders opening up to non-citizens next month because it's expensive to quarantine all incoming travelers (and the people working at the facilities don't see their families for months). I really hope it can happen this summer, even if we have to pay for it, but first we have to determine if there's going to be a third wave or not from easing away from Directive 16's restrictions.
  - bogomipz 7y ago
    So there is no option to self-quarantine by booking a hotel in your arrival city for two weeks?

ekianjo 7y ago

> Authoritarian governments can shine during the crisis Pretty bold claim as China did not fare too well and keeps lying from the beginning about everything.

moltar 7y ago
I think they did well. You have to consider the environment they are operating in. Very dense living conditions. Way more commingling of citizens. And the sheer population alone.
- yomly 7y ago
  Also China was the epicentre. Other governments and scientists had an extra two months to think about the problem.
MagnumOpus 7y ago
It started in the middle of China and the still only have 2 deaths/million vs 200/million in the US or UK. (And even if they lied and the number of deaths is ten times bigger, that is still an order of magnitude better than the US handled it.)
np_tedious 7y ago
Did fairly well after the fact, sure. Still messed up massively by letting (if you believe wet markets) or causing (if you believe lab was involved) the virus to start existing.
unsignedint 7y ago
It's more of Authoritarian governments with competent leadership. Result would be highly polarizing. But where correct decisions are made, Authoritarian governments would have easier time controlling populous. (and of course, these type of governments tend to be able to without/control information that is considered negative to them, too.)

LB232323 7y ago

> Authoritarian governments can really shine See how they shine in Hong Kong, see how the slave camps shine. How fondly the world remembers the shining of Germany and Russia. What light was shining there? How quickly fear has turned men into worms.

jhanschoo 7y ago
I think your criticism is misplaced, since parent was discussing in the narrow context about how effective an authoritarian government in keeping its populace safe from the virus. But the parent comment's claim also has issues too. Whereas Vietnam was able to handle this is helped by its state authority, just looking at China and Russia and Iran shows that authoritarianism alone cannot explain at all why Vietnam seems to be doing well.
c0nducktr 7y ago
Is your idea of masculinity just not caring about anyone except yourself? Because that doesn't make you much of a man in my eyes. We're dealing with a pandemic. You're not brave for not worrying about it, you're careless and selfish. Those have never seemed like masculine qualities to me.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  Your take on his values is insulting.

WildGreenLeave 7y ago

I cannot say anything about how they handled it in general with lockdowns and all of that. But there is a story how they quarantined multiple dutch (and other nationalities) people in a dirty hotel guarded by the army[0]. I mean .. yeah they may do well, but I'd prefer the messy political situation that 'has lost control of the situation' over getting locked up by the Vietnamese government. I was in Thailand at the time of the outbreak and flew back at the beginning of this month, so I agree that I'm a bit biased. But I was supposed to fly to Vietnam for a few days (and Korea) but decided to not go since unlike Thailand this story put me off and I applied for a Visa extension in Thailand instead. I don't see how Thailand lost control of the situation. Furthermore, at least in Thailand I didn't have to worry about getting locked up. All other extra step the Vietnamese government did is also something Thailand did. Obviously we are discussing something based on our own perception and based on numbers that may or may not be true. So in the end it doesn't change anything and I don't want to say you are wrong. I'm merely trying to put things in perspective. :) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/british-couple-contract-virus-on-flight-from-heathrow-to-vietnam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/british-couple...

basch 7y ago
every country seems to be prioritizing lives, freedom, and economy in different orders.