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I once had a relationship with someone with depression. As someone who is naturally quite happy[1], the thing that suprised me most at the start of the relation

I once had a relationship with someone with depression. As someone who is naturally quite happy[1], the thing that suprised me most at the start of the relationship is the amount of time she spent strategising how to be happy, rather than just getting on with being happy. In her case, it's understandable because depression is completely irrational[2] But nations do have the capacity to act rationally, so when I these posts and wonder if the world really needs more strategies. Do we need to spend more time strategizing, rather than getting on-board with the solutions that already have steam (as imperfect as they might be)? Anyway, here is my contribution to the noise: https://paul.copplest.one/blog/why-nations-succeed.html https://paul.copplest.one/blog/why-nations-succeed.html [1] happy/positive, whatever word you want without derailing the point of the comment [2] for anyone with depression, please read this with positive intent. Depression is horrific and I wouldn't wish it on my enemies

imgabe 7y ago
> But nations do have the capacity to act rationally, I wouldn't be so sure about that.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  I believe that even shitty decisions made by governments (or presidents, or companies, or individuals) are made completely rationally - but only from their perspective. I mean take right-wing arguments (given that HN and a lot of the internet is mostly left leaning), to them, blaming immigrants for a lack of jobs and keeping them out to preserve jobs is completely rational. Cause and effect, obvious solution, etc. Anti-vaxxers and other pseudoscience movements that have sprung up recently also feel perfectly rational about the BS they're sprouting. I mean from what I can see from here the earth is flat, that's a rational observation to make.
  - kiwicopple 7y ago
    Not the parent poster, but that's a good point. I guess the limiting factor isn't rationality, so it must be misinformation (anti-vaxxers) or disagreements on the consequences of the information (immigration is bad because there aren't enough jobs). Or maybe just trolling (flat-earthers).
aaron-lebo 7y ago
There is a book by some political scientists have the opposite starting point: Why Nations Fail. For the record, they've also got other material which I think is some of the most brilliant research we've got on why politics/societies are the way they are. Very obvious but conceptually simple, with multiple case studies of countries like your post, but (no offense) with a lot more data backing up their claims. Check it out! RE: depression. Being someone that's dealt with it, I'm sensitive to it being characterized as irrational - there is more than a little research that suggests that depression is perfectly rational, that it reflects reality. I know personally that what I find irrational is individuals/orgs/societies that are driven by the abuse of others, by obsession with material wealth and status by people that have done nothing other than be social climbers, to be part of a species that after thousands of years of history makes the same mistakes (see above discussion). Just saying. Have a little understanding for where your friend is coming from. For you to call it irrational may only lead them further into it, were you to say as much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Origins-Dictatorship-Democracy-Acemoglu/dp/0521671426 https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Origins-Dictatorship-Democra... Thank you for your post, though.
- kiwicopple 7y ago
  > Why Nations Fail This is actually the inspiration for my blog title. And I agree, it has a lot more data and is more thorough than what I've written so it's hard to be offended by pointing that out. > I'm sensitive to it being characterized as irrational My bad. This is the language that she came up with as a way of describing her behaviour to me (i'm probably a bit too far on the rational side and less on the empathy side). But we definitely agree with the causes you point out - her idea of a peaceful life is escaping society altogether
Ididntdothis 7y ago
If you don’t know how to do something you can’t just get on with it. You have to strategize. I myself have a tendency towards depression and don’t really know how it is to just to be happy. Especially after failing a few times you either give up or you start strategizing how to do it. It s a crazy cycle.
- aaron-lebo 7y ago
  Those that don't know what it is like to not be naturally happy in many cases may not understand how easy it is to get intoa bad headspace, and how vitally important it is to take the correct steps to prevent it. It is life-threatening stuff and even when it is not, it is disabling, hence the strategy.
- kiwicopple 7y ago
  I hope I made it clear in my comment that I understand this. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the analogy so that my main point wasn't lost. For those with depression, please strategize and do whatever you need to.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    Reading your comment again I see what you were trying to say. I guess having depression makes you sensitive to people saying "just go out and have fun"...
    - kiwicopple 7y ago
      That's... a very wholesome response. Not something you see often on anonymous forums. I hope you can find some nice, peaceful strategies to live by - good luck
throwaway882321 7y ago
As someone who suffers from depression due to previous drug abuse I can't even begin to imagine what you mean by just get on with being happy, I have a loving wife, good job and I guess what most people would call a happy life but I'm never more than two steps away from just opting out, I have been through therapy and various anti-depressants but they leave me feeling the emptiness even more profoundly. My brain chemistry is irreversibly fucked for lack of a better word, a little strategising might just give me a little hope, although false, hope is better than the clear and obvious solution to my woes.
- champagneben 7y ago
  Stay strong. >My brain chemistry is irreversibly fucked for lack of a better word Are you sure it's completely irreversible?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    It may or may not be. Nobody knows the whole science, it accrues too fast for people to keep track of it. Maybe some PhD somewhere out there wrote a paper about a chemical or therapy that would solve GP's problems. Or maybe it will exist in 10 years. Or maybe never. I assume GP did a lot of searching and experimentation, and haven't found a solution. From my own experience I can tell that the process of searching itself is very draining, especially if your trial-and-error has to involve help from a specialist at each step. So at some point one just figures out a coping strategy and cuts their losses.
    - champagneben 7y ago
      >I assume GP did a lot of searching and experimentation, and haven't found a solution. Yeah, I was very hesitant to ask so as not to seem like I didn't think they've looked into it.. All the best to you as well.

imgabe 7y ago

> But nations do have the capacity to act rationally, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
I believe that even shitty decisions made by governments (or presidents, or companies, or individuals) are made completely rationally - but only from their perspective. I mean take right-wing arguments (given that HN and a lot of the internet is mostly left leaning), to them, blaming immigrants for a lack of jobs and keeping them out to preserve jobs is completely rational. Cause and effect, obvious solution, etc. Anti-vaxxers and other pseudoscience movements that have sprung up recently also feel perfectly rational about the BS they're sprouting. I mean from what I can see from here the earth is flat, that's a rational observation to make.
- kiwicopple 7y ago
  Not the parent poster, but that's a good point. I guess the limiting factor isn't rationality, so it must be misinformation (anti-vaxxers) or disagreements on the consequences of the information (immigration is bad because there aren't enough jobs). Or maybe just trolling (flat-earthers).

aaron-lebo 7y ago

There is a book by some political scientists have the opposite starting point: Why Nations Fail. For the record, they've also got other material which I think is some of the most brilliant research we've got on why politics/societies are the way they are. Very obvious but conceptually simple, with multiple case studies of countries like your post, but (no offense) with a lot more data backing up their claims. Check it out! RE: depression. Being someone that's dealt with it, I'm sensitive to it being characterized as irrational - there is more than a little research that suggests that depression is perfectly rational, that it reflects reality. I know personally that what I find irrational is individuals/orgs/societies that are driven by the abuse of others, by obsession with material wealth and status by people that have done nothing other than be social climbers, to be part of a species that after thousands of years of history makes the same mistakes (see above discussion). Just saying. Have a little understanding for where your friend is coming from. For you to call it irrational may only lead them further into it, were you to say as much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Origins-Dictatorship-Democracy-Acemoglu/dp/0521671426 https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Origins-Dictatorship-Democra... Thank you for your post, though.

kiwicopple 7y ago
> Why Nations Fail This is actually the inspiration for my blog title. And I agree, it has a lot more data and is more thorough than what I've written so it's hard to be offended by pointing that out. > I'm sensitive to it being characterized as irrational My bad. This is the language that she came up with as a way of describing her behaviour to me (i'm probably a bit too far on the rational side and less on the empathy side). But we definitely agree with the causes you point out - her idea of a peaceful life is escaping society altogether

Ididntdothis 7y ago

If you don’t know how to do something you can’t just get on with it. You have to strategize. I myself have a tendency towards depression and don’t really know how it is to just to be happy. Especially after failing a few times you either give up or you start strategizing how to do it. It s a crazy cycle.

aaron-lebo 7y ago
Those that don't know what it is like to not be naturally happy in many cases may not understand how easy it is to get intoa bad headspace, and how vitally important it is to take the correct steps to prevent it. It is life-threatening stuff and even when it is not, it is disabling, hence the strategy.
kiwicopple 7y ago
I hope I made it clear in my comment that I understand this. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the analogy so that my main point wasn't lost. For those with depression, please strategize and do whatever you need to.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Reading your comment again I see what you were trying to say. I guess having depression makes you sensitive to people saying "just go out and have fun"...
  - kiwicopple 7y ago
    That's... a very wholesome response. Not something you see often on anonymous forums. I hope you can find some nice, peaceful strategies to live by - good luck

throwaway882321 7y ago

As someone who suffers from depression due to previous drug abuse I can't even begin to imagine what you mean by just get on with being happy, I have a loving wife, good job and I guess what most people would call a happy life but I'm never more than two steps away from just opting out, I have been through therapy and various anti-depressants but they leave me feeling the emptiness even more profoundly. My brain chemistry is irreversibly fucked for lack of a better word, a little strategising might just give me a little hope, although false, hope is better than the clear and obvious solution to my woes.

champagneben 7y ago
Stay strong. >My brain chemistry is irreversibly fucked for lack of a better word Are you sure it's completely irreversible?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  It may or may not be. Nobody knows the whole science, it accrues too fast for people to keep track of it. Maybe some PhD somewhere out there wrote a paper about a chemical or therapy that would solve GP's problems. Or maybe it will exist in 10 years. Or maybe never. I assume GP did a lot of searching and experimentation, and haven't found a solution. From my own experience I can tell that the process of searching itself is very draining, especially if your trial-and-error has to involve help from a specialist at each step. So at some point one just figures out a coping strategy and cuts their losses.
  - champagneben 7y ago
    >I assume GP did a lot of searching and experimentation, and haven't found a solution. Yeah, I was very hesitant to ask so as not to seem like I didn't think they've looked into it.. All the best to you as well.