4 ms·

Startup: an emotional roller coaster ride

43 points by sparshgupta 16y ago

prateekdayal 16y ago
Its interesting to know that you have to do a webex demo for your products. I assumed that for Saas, demos are a thing of the past. Other people have experienced the same too?
- paraschopra 16y ago
  Yes, big companies usually need webex demo. I'd be curious to know if other people experience the same (or VWO is an exception).
  - mahmud 16y ago
    Yes, webex is par for the course, but it helps you negotiate better $. Charge a "pain premium".
    - paraschopra 16y ago
      Excellent point. However, we have transparent per-visitor pricing (also displayed on website) so it is impossible to negotiate better $ since it is linked to traffic customer wants to test.
      - mmelin 16y ago
        Perhaps you could modify your offering to be either "Self-serve" with transparent pricing but no demos or "Hands on" with Webex demo, dedicated support etc. In my experience customers that insist on Webex demos make up for the pain in price insensitivity once convinced, but you need to be able to exploit that somehow.
        patio11 16y ago
        One interesting thing about this customer type: they will pay you just to promise to do things that you were going to do anyway. (Like, say, respond to all inquiries within 24 hours.) They will also pay you to promise not to do things you have no intention of doing. (Like, say, closing in the next twelve months.) You can charge through the nose for things like that. (A week of my time costs $X. Two consecutive weeks costs a little less than $2X. A week of my time now and a week of guaranteed availability in Q4 costs about $8X, because if you need that particular combo you can find $6X in your sofa.)
        paraschopra 16y ago
        Patrick, I think I need to learn about this from you. Right now: all I say is that tell me your traffic requirement and we will give a quote. No strings attached!
- robinwarren 16y ago
  The company I work for does not only web demos but face to face demos involving a sales guy travelling to the customer site, sometimes multiple times. This is for a SaaS app. I think some organisations are stuck in a certain way of purchasing software. One recently apparently had a half day meeting with a team of 12 'architects' to discuss implementing the software. To be clear, we're a pretty regular SaaS vendor although it is thick client there's very little they need to worry about. Certainly the questions they were asking seemed to be more relevant to a software product we install on their servers. Although the old saying says 'no one got sacked for buying IBM' possibly when people are prepared to suggest not buying IBM (or the equivalent) there still not prepared to suggest changing how the solution is bought.
epynonymous 16y ago
excellent product, and excellent story! from the video introduction, the user interface seems to be a little antiquated, what are you using for the right click menu? it reminds me of solaris CDE menus :) how did you guys get started? the idea is really novel.
- paraschopra 16y ago
  I started programming a platform which had everything from segmentation to analytics to targeting and test. Here's that platform: http://www.wingify.com/labs.php http://www.wingify.com/labs.php I did a Show HN, had beta users and got feedback (notably including patio11) that I need to focus on one aspect and make it as easy as possible. So, I focussed on A/B testing (because existing popular Google's tool was not easy to use for non technical folks) and coded Visual Website Optimizer.
  - patio11 16y ago
    Amazing that that was only a year and three months ago. It feels like forever. (Oh yeah, that was midway through the final deathmarch at work. That's why.) I just found my emails about Wingify/VWO to Paras and a friend of mine. Notably, I told Paras to raise the price (the proposed prices topped at the lowest price now) and told my SEO buddy that VWO was going to make millions.
    - paraschopra 16y ago
      Yep, I remember that you once mentioned that you would have loved to code VWO yourself and then make millions out of it. You can't imagine how powerful and motivating that was (and still is) to me. Also, Patrick, notably you dedicated a full post on your blog on VWO http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/09/bringing-ab-testing-to-the-fortune-5-million/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/09/bringing-ab-testing-to-t... and it brought bootload of beta testers. That was AMAZING! I iterated through every piece of feedback and refined it. It's hard to imagine VWO existing in form it exists today had you not helped initially. Thanks for all of this! I owe you a lot :)
bromley 16y ago
Do you find that the larger companies that typically want webex demos also want SLAs or a custom contract of some sort? My company is launching a commercial API soon, and one of the potentially high-paying customers has mentioned wanting to meet to discuss contracts. I was thinking more along the lines of standard terms and conditions and a big "click here to sign up" button, and am not sure we want to consider SLAs or custom agreements. So I'm curious as to whether you're finding that the larger companies often expect them, or whether a great service and standard T&C are enough. BTW I think I might be able to improve your conversion rate :) The "Terms" links from your sign-up pages go straight to a 404.
- paraschopra 16y ago
  (Ouch! Thanks for the heads up. We recently did an A/B test on signup page -- looks like one of the links got mixed up. Fixed it now. Though did not notice any drop in conversions, probably people don't read or care about terms. Sad, especially because our terms are quite simple). Regarding your other point, yes, some companies have elaborate custom contracts involving different teams: lawyers, procurement and what not. One of the prospective customers sent us 100 page document on Vendor Assessment with stuff like this - 'Do you keep your laptops in an open car?' and 'Do you install anti-virus software and keep it updated'. I was quite surprised but they said it was their "standard" procedure. Though, we do not offer SLAs and I don't think companies are adamant about it if you convince them that historically your uptime has been in 99.9% range.
  - bromley 16y ago
    Thank you Paras :) Focusing on historical uptime sounds like a good plan to me, and it's pleasing to hear that the companies don't tend insist on an SLA if you can demonstrate that. Custom contracts are frightening. On the plus side they give you a good reason to charge more. But on the minus side they give the other company a good reason to take you to court if something goes wrong and you're unable to deliver as expected.

43 points by sparshgupta 16y ago

Its interesting to know that you have to do a webex demo for your products. I assumed that for Saas, demos are a thing of the past. Other people have experienced the same too?

paraschopra 16y ago
Yes, big companies usually need webex demo. I'd be curious to know if other people experience the same (or VWO is an exception).
- mahmud 16y ago
  Yes, webex is par for the course, but it helps you negotiate better $. Charge a "pain premium".
  - paraschopra 16y ago
    Excellent point. However, we have transparent per-visitor pricing (also displayed on website) so it is impossible to negotiate better $ since it is linked to traffic customer wants to test.
    - mmelin 16y ago
      Perhaps you could modify your offering to be either "Self-serve" with transparent pricing but no demos or "Hands on" with Webex demo, dedicated support etc. In my experience customers that insist on Webex demos make up for the pain in price insensitivity once convinced, but you need to be able to exploit that somehow.
      - patio11 16y ago
        One interesting thing about this customer type: they will pay you just to promise to do things that you were going to do anyway. (Like, say, respond to all inquiries within 24 hours.) They will also pay you to promise not to do things you have no intention of doing. (Like, say, closing in the next twelve months.) You can charge through the nose for things like that. (A week of my time costs $X. Two consecutive weeks costs a little less than $2X. A week of my time now and a week of guaranteed availability in Q4 costs about $8X, because if you need that particular combo you can find $6X in your sofa.)
        paraschopra 16y ago
        Patrick, I think I need to learn about this from you. Right now: all I say is that tell me your traffic requirement and we will give a quote. No strings attached!
robinwarren 16y ago
The company I work for does not only web demos but face to face demos involving a sales guy travelling to the customer site, sometimes multiple times. This is for a SaaS app. I think some organisations are stuck in a certain way of purchasing software. One recently apparently had a half day meeting with a team of 12 'architects' to discuss implementing the software. To be clear, we're a pretty regular SaaS vendor although it is thick client there's very little they need to worry about. Certainly the questions they were asking seemed to be more relevant to a software product we install on their servers. Although the old saying says 'no one got sacked for buying IBM' possibly when people are prepared to suggest not buying IBM (or the equivalent) there still not prepared to suggest changing how the solution is bought.

epynonymous 16y ago

excellent product, and excellent story! from the video introduction, the user interface seems to be a little antiquated, what are you using for the right click menu? it reminds me of solaris CDE menus :) how did you guys get started? the idea is really novel.

paraschopra 16y ago
I started programming a platform which had everything from segmentation to analytics to targeting and test. Here's that platform: http://www.wingify.com/labs.php http://www.wingify.com/labs.php I did a Show HN, had beta users and got feedback (notably including patio11) that I need to focus on one aspect and make it as easy as possible. So, I focussed on A/B testing (because existing popular Google's tool was not easy to use for non technical folks) and coded Visual Website Optimizer.
- patio11 16y ago
  Amazing that that was only a year and three months ago. It feels like forever. (Oh yeah, that was midway through the final deathmarch at work. That's why.) I just found my emails about Wingify/VWO to Paras and a friend of mine. Notably, I told Paras to raise the price (the proposed prices topped at the lowest price now) and told my SEO buddy that VWO was going to make millions.
  - paraschopra 16y ago
    Yep, I remember that you once mentioned that you would have loved to code VWO yourself and then make millions out of it. You can't imagine how powerful and motivating that was (and still is) to me. Also, Patrick, notably you dedicated a full post on your blog on VWO http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/09/bringing-ab-testing-to-the-fortune-5-million/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/09/bringing-ab-testing-to-t... and it brought bootload of beta testers. That was AMAZING! I iterated through every piece of feedback and refined it. It's hard to imagine VWO existing in form it exists today had you not helped initially. Thanks for all of this! I owe you a lot :)

bromley 16y ago

Do you find that the larger companies that typically want webex demos also want SLAs or a custom contract of some sort? My company is launching a commercial API soon, and one of the potentially high-paying customers has mentioned wanting to meet to discuss contracts. I was thinking more along the lines of standard terms and conditions and a big "click here to sign up" button, and am not sure we want to consider SLAs or custom agreements. So I'm curious as to whether you're finding that the larger companies often expect them, or whether a great service and standard T&C are enough. BTW I think I might be able to improve your conversion rate :) The "Terms" links from your sign-up pages go straight to a 404.

paraschopra 16y ago
(Ouch! Thanks for the heads up. We recently did an A/B test on signup page -- looks like one of the links got mixed up. Fixed it now. Though did not notice any drop in conversions, probably people don't read or care about terms. Sad, especially because our terms are quite simple). Regarding your other point, yes, some companies have elaborate custom contracts involving different teams: lawyers, procurement and what not. One of the prospective customers sent us 100 page document on Vendor Assessment with stuff like this - 'Do you keep your laptops in an open car?' and 'Do you install anti-virus software and keep it updated'. I was quite surprised but they said it was their "standard" procedure. Though, we do not offer SLAs and I don't think companies are adamant about it if you convince them that historically your uptime has been in 99.9% range.
- bromley 16y ago
  Thank you Paras :) Focusing on historical uptime sounds like a good plan to me, and it's pleasing to hear that the companies don't tend insist on an SLA if you can demonstrate that. Custom contracts are frightening. On the plus side they give you a good reason to charge more. But on the minus side they give the other company a good reason to take you to court if something goes wrong and you're unable to deliver as expected.