7 ms·

Almost none of what you said is true. This is not voluntary, there are laws which give these powers, essential businesses can stay open regardless of their size

Almost none of what you said is true. This is not voluntary, there are laws which give these powers, essential businesses can stay open regardless of their size, recording breaking the law while conducting non essential business won’t help you in the supreme court, the federal government is saying lots and doing very little.

abfan1127 6y ago
I read somewhere about a store who didn't sell "essential items", but they tried to begin selling those items and the local police prevented him from pivoting. iirc it was a small AZ town.
- Skunkleton 6y ago
  So you maybe read about a small town in Arizona? Ok, well I buy my water refills from a small store in the Bay Area that isn’t closed down. Do our anecdotes cancel out?
cabaalis 6y ago
> there are laws which give these powers IANAL, but I know some of you are so I'm asking here. I've read that challenges to these orders will not succeed because of emergency declarations. The emergency declarations are supposedly backed by some law, correct? Don't we have a document in the national archives that guarantees things like peaceable assembly and not prohibiting exercise of religion? Yet we have people being arrested or cited for assembling, and pastors being put under arrest for holding church? Is it the temporary nature that allows this to be done? Regarding the law that allows this kind of stuff, how does that compare to a constitution which says "congress shall make no law ..."?
- dsfyu404ed 6y ago
  State's usually have laws to the tune of "if X happens then the emergency is extra super legit and the governor's orders carry the force of law" where X may or may not include a legislature vote and these laws have been exercised sparingly and in good enough taste (i.e. in actual emergencies) that they haven't been challenged much so they live in the same constitutional gray area that many obvious affronts to the text of the constitution live in.
- wpietri 6y ago
  If you're really interested in the topic, the podcast "All the President's Lawyers" discussed that this week. But in short, you can't read a couple of sentences from the constitution literally and expect that to override a couple hundred years of judicial interpretation. Regarding the first amendment in particular, one relevant area of law is "time, place, and manner". E.g., just because you have free speech doesn't mean that you can go outside at 3 am with a bullhorn and start ranting; the cops can rightly cite or arrest you. More here: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1023/time-place-and-manner-restrictions https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1023/time-place...
  - cabaalis 6y ago
    Thank you, this was very helpful. Also glad to see a link to my alma mater.
- the_watcher 6y ago
  Freedom of assembly (and to a lesser extent, at least by precise Constitutional language, freedom to exercise religion) have Constitutional protections (that may or may not be unlimited, depending on the justice you're asking). There is no Constitutional protection for running a business or being able to patronize a given business. So protests in public and worship may be protected, but your neighborhood bar is not.
  - walterbell 6y ago
    Fortunately for lawyers seeking good test cases, there's a rather long list of businesses which have been shut down. California may have more religions per capita than most places.
walterbell 6y ago
Unless there's a state-mandated quota on essential businesses, what's stopping a store from adding some essential goods to their inventory and merchandising? This would reduce the burden on other stores, i.e. increasing social distancing in parking lots and within the story. Laws exist with the consent of the governed. When laws are instituted under premises (e.g models, intelligence) that are later proved wrong (e.g. data, WMD inspections), consent should not be taken for granted.
- op00to 6y ago
  A number of small businesses in my area are offering groceries even though that is not their core business.
  - walterbell 6y ago
    If someone could interview them on the operational and regulatory logistics of that change, we could put that on github and build a playbook for other small businesses, sharing strategies across towns & states.
- the_watcher 6y ago
  > Laws exist with the consent of the governed. This is goalpost moving. Of course laws exist by the consent of the governed. Your original post claimed that there was no law, and that businesses should consider litigating to the Supreme Court, relying on pro bono lawyers who "remember their Constitution", despite the complete lack of Constitutional support for your argument.
  - walterbell 6y ago
    No law for house arrest. The "consent of the governed" comment was about state emergency powers. There's no specific argument to litigate until a specific business opens and gets into a legal dispute with a specific state.

abfan1127 6y ago

I read somewhere about a store who didn't sell "essential items", but they tried to begin selling those items and the local police prevented him from pivoting. iirc it was a small AZ town.

Skunkleton 6y ago
So you maybe read about a small town in Arizona? Ok, well I buy my water refills from a small store in the Bay Area that isn’t closed down. Do our anecdotes cancel out?

cabaalis 6y ago

> there are laws which give these powers IANAL, but I know some of you are so I'm asking here. I've read that challenges to these orders will not succeed because of emergency declarations. The emergency declarations are supposedly backed by some law, correct? Don't we have a document in the national archives that guarantees things like peaceable assembly and not prohibiting exercise of religion? Yet we have people being arrested or cited for assembling, and pastors being put under arrest for holding church? Is it the temporary nature that allows this to be done? Regarding the law that allows this kind of stuff, how does that compare to a constitution which says "congress shall make no law ..."?

dsfyu404ed 6y ago
State's usually have laws to the tune of "if X happens then the emergency is extra super legit and the governor's orders carry the force of law" where X may or may not include a legislature vote and these laws have been exercised sparingly and in good enough taste (i.e. in actual emergencies) that they haven't been challenged much so they live in the same constitutional gray area that many obvious affronts to the text of the constitution live in.
wpietri 6y ago
If you're really interested in the topic, the podcast "All the President's Lawyers" discussed that this week. But in short, you can't read a couple of sentences from the constitution literally and expect that to override a couple hundred years of judicial interpretation. Regarding the first amendment in particular, one relevant area of law is "time, place, and manner". E.g., just because you have free speech doesn't mean that you can go outside at 3 am with a bullhorn and start ranting; the cops can rightly cite or arrest you. More here: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1023/time-place-and-manner-restrictions https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1023/time-place...
- cabaalis 6y ago
  Thank you, this was very helpful. Also glad to see a link to my alma mater.
the_watcher 6y ago
Freedom of assembly (and to a lesser extent, at least by precise Constitutional language, freedom to exercise religion) have Constitutional protections (that may or may not be unlimited, depending on the justice you're asking). There is no Constitutional protection for running a business or being able to patronize a given business. So protests in public and worship may be protected, but your neighborhood bar is not.
- walterbell 6y ago
  Fortunately for lawyers seeking good test cases, there's a rather long list of businesses which have been shut down. California may have more religions per capita than most places.

walterbell 6y ago

Unless there's a state-mandated quota on essential businesses, what's stopping a store from adding some essential goods to their inventory and merchandising? This would reduce the burden on other stores, i.e. increasing social distancing in parking lots and within the story. Laws exist with the consent of the governed. When laws are instituted under premises (e.g models, intelligence) that are later proved wrong (e.g. data, WMD inspections), consent should not be taken for granted.

op00to 6y ago
A number of small businesses in my area are offering groceries even though that is not their core business.
- walterbell 6y ago
  If someone could interview them on the operational and regulatory logistics of that change, we could put that on github and build a playbook for other small businesses, sharing strategies across towns & states.
the_watcher 6y ago
> Laws exist with the consent of the governed. This is goalpost moving. Of course laws exist by the consent of the governed. Your original post claimed that there was no law, and that businesses should consider litigating to the Supreme Court, relying on pro bono lawyers who "remember their Constitution", despite the complete lack of Constitutional support for your argument.
- walterbell 6y ago
  No law for house arrest. The "consent of the governed" comment was about state emergency powers. There's no specific argument to litigate until a specific business opens and gets into a legal dispute with a specific state.