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Of all the western world, the population of the UK seems to me the least concerned about privacy. Given the ubiquity of (and willingness to leverage) the UK's

Of all the western world, the population of the UK seems to me the least concerned about privacy. Given the ubiquity of (and willingness to leverage) the UK's camera and social-media surveillance across across all level of law enforcement in the country, I've come under the impression that they've collectively decided that they'll tolerate just about anything in exchange for an orderly and secure society. Mandatory app installation really doesn't seem out of the question.

Silhouette 7y ago
Of all the western world, the population of the UK seems to me the least concerned about privacy. We have a strangely inconsistent pattern on this issue. Up to a point, people here seem willing to trust the government and the police and security services, and therefore to tolerate more intrusion than in many places. On the other hand, if you go too far, you get a situation like No2ID, and any hope the government has of introducing anything even vaguely resembling a sufficiently controversial measure dies for a generation (or probably more, since our younger generations are, as in most places, much more tech savvy and aware of these issues). Given that people here are already somewhat sceptical of the government's handling of the coronavirus situation in general and of the lockdown measures specifically, but for now people are mostly following the guidance anyway, rocking that boat is probably not a wise move politically.
- enitihas 7y ago
  Not British, but from what I read, don't the British people trust the NHS even more than government and police, and so any pushback against an NHS recommended app or approach might be minor.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    I'm inclined to agree.. NHS generally are excellent stewards of data.
  - JoshTriplett 7y ago
    Right up until the NHS-collected data is abused by another government agency for some purpose other than health.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    The NHS is generally very well-respected, but it's important to remember that "the NHS" is really a large collection of distinct organisations and a huge number of people working within them, and to some extent the shared culture within that community. The professional ethics of those working in the NHS are generally respected, but that mostly refers to clinical staff and to some extent support staff. The management and bean-counters are not necessarily accorded the same trust and respect, nor should they be on the basis of past performance. The NHS has done some shady things with sensitive personal data on their watch, and we absolutely should be cautious of any cavalier attitude towards privacy if the NHS leadership and their political masters try to push out this sort of contact tracing app. FWIW, I wouldn't install such an app if I didn't consider it to have sufficient safeguards, but then I'm a strong advocate of privacy and civil liberties who is also willing to give up various other "normal" parts of life to avoid compromising those principles in ways that make me uncomfortable. What should concern the powers that be in this case isn't me, but rather the number of my friends and family who typically do tolerate more intrusion into their privacy (for example, being willing to share a lot of personal information on major social networks) but have expressed concern about this app.
amiga_500 7y ago
I think it's actually that of all the western world, Americans are the most obsessed about government conspiracies. Which is so weird because despite all this rugged "fight for your rights", Americans have some of the weakest labour and health rights. But I guess you do have the right to say you have very weak rights!
- crocodiletears 7y ago
  I'd wager that the UK is a little more extreme than most European nations with respect to privacy, at least as described by German and a Dutch friends of mine. I believe that the American conception of rights is quite distinct from the European one. In the US, the rights outlined in the constitution are independent of the state, which was engineered as their guarantor. These rights restrain the state, and ought ostensibly to be universally applied, but offer no guarantee of service beyond the securement of those rights, and provision for the common defense. Conversely, European rights seem to be hard-earned privileges or guarantees on quality of life that have been extended to the people by the state. These rights can directly impose duties on either the state, or certain members of the population (I.e. employers). Functionally, they're pretty similar day to day, but European-style rights benefit from flexibility, but are also much more likely to be subject to provisions or restrictions such as laws around speech, in part because they're closer to a negotiable agreement between the people and their government, as opposed to some inviolate universal law which requires extreme measures to actually amend. Europeans generally seem to have a higher quality of life, and are afforded better care and services by more broadly competent governments. They have superior labor protections. I wish we had some of them. I'm not convinced they have more rights, as I would define them.
  - Robin_Message 7y ago
    The US also has a weird dichotomy between rights against the state, which are plentiful (i.e. Bill of Rights) and broadly stronger than anywhere else in the world, and a lack of rights against other citizens or corporations, where they are weaker than the rest of the West. So you get obnoxious Home-Owner Association rules when you buy a house, you get unions (your right to freely associate and organise with others) curtailed and destroyed, you get no meaningful privacy protection against scummy companies vacuuming up data (e.g. Equifax)

Silhouette 7y ago

Of all the western world, the population of the UK seems to me the least concerned about privacy. We have a strangely inconsistent pattern on this issue. Up to a point, people here seem willing to trust the government and the police and security services, and therefore to tolerate more intrusion than in many places. On the other hand, if you go too far, you get a situation like No2ID, and any hope the government has of introducing anything even vaguely resembling a sufficiently controversial measure dies for a generation (or probably more, since our younger generations are, as in most places, much more tech savvy and aware of these issues). Given that people here are already somewhat sceptical of the government's handling of the coronavirus situation in general and of the lockdown measures specifically, but for now people are mostly following the guidance anyway, rocking that boat is probably not a wise move politically.

enitihas 7y ago
Not British, but from what I read, don't the British people trust the NHS even more than government and police, and so any pushback against an NHS recommended app or approach might be minor.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  I'm inclined to agree.. NHS generally are excellent stewards of data.
- JoshTriplett 7y ago
  Right up until the NHS-collected data is abused by another government agency for some purpose other than health.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  The NHS is generally very well-respected, but it's important to remember that "the NHS" is really a large collection of distinct organisations and a huge number of people working within them, and to some extent the shared culture within that community. The professional ethics of those working in the NHS are generally respected, but that mostly refers to clinical staff and to some extent support staff. The management and bean-counters are not necessarily accorded the same trust and respect, nor should they be on the basis of past performance. The NHS has done some shady things with sensitive personal data on their watch, and we absolutely should be cautious of any cavalier attitude towards privacy if the NHS leadership and their political masters try to push out this sort of contact tracing app. FWIW, I wouldn't install such an app if I didn't consider it to have sufficient safeguards, but then I'm a strong advocate of privacy and civil liberties who is also willing to give up various other "normal" parts of life to avoid compromising those principles in ways that make me uncomfortable. What should concern the powers that be in this case isn't me, but rather the number of my friends and family who typically do tolerate more intrusion into their privacy (for example, being willing to share a lot of personal information on major social networks) but have expressed concern about this app.

amiga_500 7y ago

I think it's actually that of all the western world, Americans are the most obsessed about government conspiracies. Which is so weird because despite all this rugged "fight for your rights", Americans have some of the weakest labour and health rights. But I guess you do have the right to say you have very weak rights!

crocodiletears 7y ago
I'd wager that the UK is a little more extreme than most European nations with respect to privacy, at least as described by German and a Dutch friends of mine. I believe that the American conception of rights is quite distinct from the European one. In the US, the rights outlined in the constitution are independent of the state, which was engineered as their guarantor. These rights restrain the state, and ought ostensibly to be universally applied, but offer no guarantee of service beyond the securement of those rights, and provision for the common defense. Conversely, European rights seem to be hard-earned privileges or guarantees on quality of life that have been extended to the people by the state. These rights can directly impose duties on either the state, or certain members of the population (I.e. employers). Functionally, they're pretty similar day to day, but European-style rights benefit from flexibility, but are also much more likely to be subject to provisions or restrictions such as laws around speech, in part because they're closer to a negotiable agreement between the people and their government, as opposed to some inviolate universal law which requires extreme measures to actually amend. Europeans generally seem to have a higher quality of life, and are afforded better care and services by more broadly competent governments. They have superior labor protections. I wish we had some of them. I'm not convinced they have more rights, as I would define them.
- Robin_Message 7y ago
  The US also has a weird dichotomy between rights against the state, which are plentiful (i.e. Bill of Rights) and broadly stronger than anywhere else in the world, and a lack of rights against other citizens or corporations, where they are weaker than the rest of the West. So you get obnoxious Home-Owner Association rules when you buy a house, you get unions (your right to freely associate and organise with others) curtailed and destroyed, you get no meaningful privacy protection against scummy companies vacuuming up data (e.g. Equifax)