6 ms·

So the author goes, "wait, this actually causes more evil than good, I will not work on it any longer", and the other guy goes "don't worry, I will keep doing

So the author goes, "wait, this actually causes more evil than good, I will not work on it any longer", and the other guy goes "don't worry, I will keep doing the evil for you!" Sigh.

deadmutex 6y ago
It's tricky thing... where do you draw the line? If someone works on the linux kernel, and someone uses the OS to do bad things.. should one stop? Also consider that object detection has a lot of impact in positive ways as well. It doesn't seem so black and white.
- MiroF 6y ago
  I agree - but I imagine even personally it might be a hard thing to hear that something you created is being used to kill people, even with the knowledge that it is doing a lot of good. I'm curious if this is something that some sort of modified license could help resolve. Do I have the option to license my software so that it can't be used in war?
  - rcw4256 6y ago
    Yes, but you need to be prepared to take it to court when someone uses your software in war.
    - hprotagonist 6y ago
      and when the answer is “hey, it’s GPL’d, here’s our source download link, fuck off we’re exactly following the rules”? Licenses are not a viable solution to this sort of ethical quandry.
      - rcw4256 6y ago
        That answer should be unsatisfactory to the court, since it wasn't licensed under the GPL. The rules, in this case, say no use in war.
  - bangonkeyboard 6y ago
    > I'm curious if this is something that some sort of modified license could help resolve. Do I have the option to license my software so that it can't be used in war? "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not_Evil%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not...
  - wolco 6y ago
    Wouldn't object detection save people over the current method of dropping a huge bomb at a wedding?
- qchris 6y ago
  I'm going to jump in here as someone who is using object detection, and currently working on getting a Darknet detector in particular up and running, in what I'd like to think is a positive way. I'm a researcher working on a system for monitoring offshore kelp farms for renewable aquaculture with an autonomous underwater vehicle. I can't use GPS underwater, Dopper velocity logs and sensitive inertial navigation systems are either too expensive and/or export-controlled, and doing manual filtering of visual data is tricky and inconsistent. Adding good object detection for kelp to helps to make that kind of system much more reliable, which can help provide useful metrics to groups working on creating new biofuel sources and marine ecosystem monitoring. I think that's valuable work, and it's enabled by YOLO. Joe Redmon has paid attention to where and how his work is being used, and I respect him for disengaging with something that he finds not to line up with his values. But it's worth pointing out that there are people (not just me) who are using that work in ways that might be worthwhile.
  - pstuart 6y ago
    I'm of the opinion that kelp farms could be a huge benefit to humanity if we could scale them up enough. Your work seems worthy of an AMA if you ever have the time.
    - qchris 6y ago
      I appreciate that, I think they have a lot of promise as well! I do think things are probably a bit early to be trying to do an AMA (I feel that they're often as much Q&A as they are a pitch about the topic itself), and both the tech and farm structure at the moment are both up in the air. For example, the robotics end is currently a human-piloted ROV with data getting obtained in post-processing on dozens of fronds, rather than an AUV doing real-time inference (hopefully to be solved by YOLO) on thousands. However, I recently heard about some tentative plans for a more in-depth pilot-scale effort in Spring/Summer 2021, by which time we'll hopefully have some more interesting results to talk about!
  - rgovostes 6y ago
    Is there anywhere I can read more about your project? Seems tangentially related to what I am using it for, actually!
- blueboo 6y ago
  The fact that it's a judgment call doesn't absolve you of responsibility to use your judgment.
oh_sigh 6y ago
Do you commonly defer your moral judgements to a third party? Or do you sigh only because in this instance you agree with the original author, but you don't actually think it should be a rule that others are constrained by the moral thoughts of their predecessors? I know of a promising treatment for types of hypothyroidism, but the original discoverer doesn't want to continue work on it because she doesn't agree with animal testing. If my moral calculus says that the quality of life of millions of humans is more important than the quality of lives of thousands of rats and dogs, am I not allowed to pick up where she left off?
quotemstr 6y ago
Technology by itself is never "evil". There is no such thing as improving welfare by prolonging our ignorance of the natural world.
- DagAgren 6y ago
  There is no such thing as "technology by itself".
StavrosK 6y ago
Who was that? I can't find the tweet.

So the author goes, "wait, this actually causes more evil than good, I will not work on it any longer", and the other guy goes "don't worry, I will keep doing the evil for you!" Sigh.

deadmutex 6y ago

It's tricky thing... where do you draw the line? If someone works on the linux kernel, and someone uses the OS to do bad things.. should one stop? Also consider that object detection has a lot of impact in positive ways as well. It doesn't seem so black and white.

MiroF 6y ago
I agree - but I imagine even personally it might be a hard thing to hear that something you created is being used to kill people, even with the knowledge that it is doing a lot of good. I'm curious if this is something that some sort of modified license could help resolve. Do I have the option to license my software so that it can't be used in war?
- rcw4256 6y ago
  Yes, but you need to be prepared to take it to court when someone uses your software in war.
  - hprotagonist 6y ago
    and when the answer is “hey, it’s GPL’d, here’s our source download link, fuck off we’re exactly following the rules”? Licenses are not a viable solution to this sort of ethical quandry.
    - rcw4256 6y ago
      That answer should be unsatisfactory to the court, since it wasn't licensed under the GPL. The rules, in this case, say no use in war.
- bangonkeyboard 6y ago
  > I'm curious if this is something that some sort of modified license could help resolve. Do I have the option to license my software so that it can't be used in war? "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not_Evil%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not...
- wolco 6y ago
  Wouldn't object detection save people over the current method of dropping a huge bomb at a wedding?
qchris 6y ago
I'm going to jump in here as someone who is using object detection, and currently working on getting a Darknet detector in particular up and running, in what I'd like to think is a positive way. I'm a researcher working on a system for monitoring offshore kelp farms for renewable aquaculture with an autonomous underwater vehicle. I can't use GPS underwater, Dopper velocity logs and sensitive inertial navigation systems are either too expensive and/or export-controlled, and doing manual filtering of visual data is tricky and inconsistent. Adding good object detection for kelp to helps to make that kind of system much more reliable, which can help provide useful metrics to groups working on creating new biofuel sources and marine ecosystem monitoring. I think that's valuable work, and it's enabled by YOLO. Joe Redmon has paid attention to where and how his work is being used, and I respect him for disengaging with something that he finds not to line up with his values. But it's worth pointing out that there are people (not just me) who are using that work in ways that might be worthwhile.
- pstuart 6y ago
  I'm of the opinion that kelp farms could be a huge benefit to humanity if we could scale them up enough. Your work seems worthy of an AMA if you ever have the time.
  - qchris 6y ago
    I appreciate that, I think they have a lot of promise as well! I do think things are probably a bit early to be trying to do an AMA (I feel that they're often as much Q&A as they are a pitch about the topic itself), and both the tech and farm structure at the moment are both up in the air. For example, the robotics end is currently a human-piloted ROV with data getting obtained in post-processing on dozens of fronds, rather than an AUV doing real-time inference (hopefully to be solved by YOLO) on thousands. However, I recently heard about some tentative plans for a more in-depth pilot-scale effort in Spring/Summer 2021, by which time we'll hopefully have some more interesting results to talk about!
- rgovostes 6y ago
  Is there anywhere I can read more about your project? Seems tangentially related to what I am using it for, actually!
blueboo 6y ago
The fact that it's a judgment call doesn't absolve you of responsibility to use your judgment.

oh_sigh 6y ago

Do you commonly defer your moral judgements to a third party? Or do you sigh only because in this instance you agree with the original author, but you don't actually think it should be a rule that others are constrained by the moral thoughts of their predecessors? I know of a promising treatment for types of hypothyroidism, but the original discoverer doesn't want to continue work on it because she doesn't agree with animal testing. If my moral calculus says that the quality of life of millions of humans is more important than the quality of lives of thousands of rats and dogs, am I not allowed to pick up where she left off?

quotemstr 6y ago

Technology by itself is never "evil". There is no such thing as improving welfare by prolonging our ignorance of the natural world.

DagAgren 6y ago
There is no such thing as "technology by itself".

StavrosK 6y ago

Who was that? I can't find the tweet.