5 ms·

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I think (and have read others who agree, sorry, no references available) that the fairly ubiquitous "coming of age" ceremony is very important. My oldest is 17 and we will be doing something this summer with my father (backpacking or the like) to celebrate his manhood. And, yes, we will even have a formal ceremony. I'm always looking for good reading on this subject (truly guiding your kids to adulthood), so if you have any good pointers, send them on!

Florin_Andrei 16y ago
To me, it seems pretty obvious that all the adolescent tribulations are a cry for independence. The individual feels they're already at the point where they can take off on their own, but everything else around them beats them back down.
- asolove 16y ago
  Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. Starting at 13 everyone feels they can be independent and take care of things better than everyone else, and (at least at 13) they are wrong. They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help. But without the experience of that first failure, and overcoming it with the guidance and support of people around them, these teenagers continue to demand their independence and fail to find any proof of their own self-worth long into their twenties and middle age...
  - hasenj 16y ago
    > Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. It is natural non the less. > They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help. So it's the responsibility of their parents and the society at large to help them become independent, instead of beating them down and accusing them of being stupid and irrational.
- forkandwait 16y ago
  At the risk of being pretentious, I would say that what we all yearn for is (Heidegger's idea and vocabulary): "spatio-temporal ecstasis" -- the feeling that our self is expanding into the world, quickly and far. I get it when I learn more math -- I can feel my power or whatever it is expand into world. Teens in a good environment get it when they do their homework -- they know they are expanding and they feel it. All teens get it when they discover and become proficient at adult fun like fighting, working (at least some get this ;)), sex, driving fast, and becoming a mother. And when we crank down on this flowering of a person, they get upset. As they should (I love a pissed off teenager, myself, as long as they are smart too ...) I don't think it's independence, it's this Nietszchean sort of power. (Remember, Nietszche knew that the discipline of the self christian ascetic was as much a will-to-power as the rape and pillage of Attilla or a successful HS football player...)
  - shii 16y ago
    Wow, (at the risk of breaking the anti-meta rule) this is the kind of comment I love and come to HN for. This entire topic has been heavily on my mind for the last few months as I'm transitioning to legal adulthood and am in the college application process. Questions about who and what I am as a person and what I'll do for the rest of my life have been prime things in the back of my head throughout the day, and along with it, a lot of existentialist crisis. I've spent the last 7 years at the same 2 public schools and community college, and before that 6 years at private/theme/charter schools that had unique teaching styles and freedoms that they gave their students. I felt like I matured better there than during my time at public high school and middle school. Yet during the last two years at community college (I was/am dual-enrolled) the new feeling of freedom from inane rules like asking for permission to do real silly and small things like going to the bathroom, getting up to sharpen my pencil or blow my nose, and daily attendance to classes I had limited choice over was exhilarating at first. Having all this freedom all at once after 11 years of harsh rules however proved to be too much of a rush and with little to no accountability to authority figures who were always checking on your work and setting soft/easy boundaries on assignments and guidelines to be strictly followed...I lapsed into a phase of constant gaming and wasting time on other non-productive things (like HN ;). After my grades came back that first semester, along with it was a cold slap of reality and a realization that I had to take responsibility over my own education and learn and excel in everything I do for my own sake. This is when I began to learn Python seriously, treat school as a day-job that I did well on. In normal school, there is little to push the person to do more than what is required after a certain "honors" level (the kinds of classes I took during my first two years of high school before transitioning to dual-enrollment). I never really thought of learning pure math recreationally, or that was A Thing even. I think Heidegger's idea you mention is a great way to describe the feeling of "becoming" into someone/something that I'm not sure of yet. This idea is explained in pretty-good manner here[1] by Mac thecaster, a really interesting guy who has been lifecasting his own development in life for quite a few years now since he was 15 and now is about 19/20. Getting involved in real-world activities as a teen has also helped me develop better as an adult; I've worked jack-of-all-trades at an ethnic restaurant, and learned to haggle/negotiate while buying meats, sell products to potential customers, treat them well so they spend more and often, and how to clean many types of things. I've learned from criminals, former DJs and salesmen, and auto-mechanics while working side-by-side with them washing dishes, grilling large orders of steaks, and had many more experiences while being treated as an adult than before in my life. This is partly why I believe most people who go on summer trips with programs like People to People[2], and EPGY[3], and other summer learning or traveling retreats are more wholesome and well-rounded people. Considering the formidable costs associated with these organized trips and learning retreats, the mostly affluent/well-off kids are able to actually go to them, or even be aware of their existence (from siblings or peer-networking amongst parents from the same socio-economic class). This can be correlated with the recent post about[4] how more confident and successful children born into prosperous families are and decides a lot of things for them in the long run. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgxp71tDgk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgxp71tDgk [2]: http://www.peopletopeople.com/Pages/default.aspx http://www.peopletopeople.com/Pages/default.aspx [3]: http://epgy.stanford.edu http://epgy.stanford.edu [4]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2296550 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2296550
mml 16y ago
Epstein published the horribly named "teen 2.0" if youre interested in his brand of thinking on the matter
teyc 16y ago
Formal education is probably the culprit here. It segments young adults into age groups, and then limits the entire days interaction to the same lot of children. You can't define people simply by what year they are born in. Some family environments provide children with an outlet where they end up with a very mature outlook, others don't. The problem with this stratification is that it soon becomes the "norm" for children. My kids would say, for example, he wouldn't talk to some other kids because they are in another grade or in another class. It is a totally artificial barrier. In days past, you'd have a grandfather or grandmother around. Kids would hang around their uncles and cousins workshops. There no distinct border. Children can see how they are expected to transition from one role to another. Fast forward to the present day, the "teen" is now effectively a market segment, and it has become "weird" or uncomfortable to deal with kids who are too young for them or adults who are uncool for them. The narrative behind TV shows and books only serve to reinforce this. As parents, we have a duty to help our children recognize these artificial barriers and help them overcome these perception.
- wisty 16y ago
  I'd blame homework, not education in general. Kids have gone to school since Shakespeare's time. But they went home and either helped their dad on the farm, helped their mum do the housework, got a part time job, or read books and hunted crawdads. Now, many people would consider it abuse, forcing a child of 14 to help out at work. Especially if they were only paid a nominal fee. They should be doing their homework, getting one-up on their peers. Unless they are from a family that doesn't value education, and then they should be learning to cope with a job market that won't value them.
  - teyc 16y ago
    Quite the contrary. It is the availability of massive amount of idle time that creates a demand/outlet.
- yters 16y ago
  I blame child labor laws. Since children below a certain age are unemployable adults lock them away in school where they can't cause trouble and learn to do what they're told.
giardini 16y ago
SoftwareMaven says: "I'm always looking for good reading on this subject (truly guiding your kids to adulthood), so if you have any good pointers, send them on!" Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare.
- Jach 16y ago
  While not something to read, I always thought the bullet ant way ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ6rFKhyn0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ6rFKhyn0 ) was a nice way to go about it.
mmavnn 16y ago
Had a random moment and posted my pointers as a reply to the wrong parent ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2300374 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2300374 ). To reiterate I found both "Manhood" and "Raising Boys" by Steve Biddulph ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biddulph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biddulph ) and "Healing the Masculine Soul" (Dalby, http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Masculine-Soul-Restoration-Manhood/dp/0849944384 http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Masculine-Soul-Restoration-Man... ) helpful, although be warned that the last book is explicitly Christian in viewpoint.

Florin_Andrei 16y ago

To me, it seems pretty obvious that all the adolescent tribulations are a cry for independence. The individual feels they're already at the point where they can take off on their own, but everything else around them beats them back down.

asolove 16y ago
Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. Starting at 13 everyone feels they can be independent and take care of things better than everyone else, and (at least at 13) they are wrong. They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help. But without the experience of that first failure, and overcoming it with the guidance and support of people around them, these teenagers continue to demand their independence and fail to find any proof of their own self-worth long into their twenties and middle age...
- hasenj 16y ago
  > Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. It is natural non the less. > They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help. So it's the responsibility of their parents and the society at large to help them become independent, instead of beating them down and accusing them of being stupid and irrational.
forkandwait 16y ago
At the risk of being pretentious, I would say that what we all yearn for is (Heidegger's idea and vocabulary): "spatio-temporal ecstasis" -- the feeling that our self is expanding into the world, quickly and far. I get it when I learn more math -- I can feel my power or whatever it is expand into world. Teens in a good environment get it when they do their homework -- they know they are expanding and they feel it. All teens get it when they discover and become proficient at adult fun like fighting, working (at least some get this ;)), sex, driving fast, and becoming a mother. And when we crank down on this flowering of a person, they get upset. As they should (I love a pissed off teenager, myself, as long as they are smart too ...) I don't think it's independence, it's this Nietszchean sort of power. (Remember, Nietszche knew that the discipline of the self christian ascetic was as much a will-to-power as the rape and pillage of Attilla or a successful HS football player...)
- shii 16y ago
  Wow, (at the risk of breaking the anti-meta rule) this is the kind of comment I love and come to HN for. This entire topic has been heavily on my mind for the last few months as I'm transitioning to legal adulthood and am in the college application process. Questions about who and what I am as a person and what I'll do for the rest of my life have been prime things in the back of my head throughout the day, and along with it, a lot of existentialist crisis. I've spent the last 7 years at the same 2 public schools and community college, and before that 6 years at private/theme/charter schools that had unique teaching styles and freedoms that they gave their students. I felt like I matured better there than during my time at public high school and middle school. Yet during the last two years at community college (I was/am dual-enrolled) the new feeling of freedom from inane rules like asking for permission to do real silly and small things like going to the bathroom, getting up to sharpen my pencil or blow my nose, and daily attendance to classes I had limited choice over was exhilarating at first. Having all this freedom all at once after 11 years of harsh rules however proved to be too much of a rush and with little to no accountability to authority figures who were always checking on your work and setting soft/easy boundaries on assignments and guidelines to be strictly followed...I lapsed into a phase of constant gaming and wasting time on other non-productive things (like HN ;). After my grades came back that first semester, along with it was a cold slap of reality and a realization that I had to take responsibility over my own education and learn and excel in everything I do for my own sake. This is when I began to learn Python seriously, treat school as a day-job that I did well on. In normal school, there is little to push the person to do more than what is required after a certain "honors" level (the kinds of classes I took during my first two years of high school before transitioning to dual-enrollment). I never really thought of learning pure math recreationally, or that was A Thing even. I think Heidegger's idea you mention is a great way to describe the feeling of "becoming" into someone/something that I'm not sure of yet. This idea is explained in pretty-good manner here[1] by Mac thecaster, a really interesting guy who has been lifecasting his own development in life for quite a few years now since he was 15 and now is about 19/20. Getting involved in real-world activities as a teen has also helped me develop better as an adult; I've worked jack-of-all-trades at an ethnic restaurant, and learned to haggle/negotiate while buying meats, sell products to potential customers, treat them well so they spend more and often, and how to clean many types of things. I've learned from criminals, former DJs and salesmen, and auto-mechanics while working side-by-side with them washing dishes, grilling large orders of steaks, and had many more experiences while being treated as an adult than before in my life. This is partly why I believe most people who go on summer trips with programs like People to People[2], and EPGY[3], and other summer learning or traveling retreats are more wholesome and well-rounded people. Considering the formidable costs associated with these organized trips and learning retreats, the mostly affluent/well-off kids are able to actually go to them, or even be aware of their existence (from siblings or peer-networking amongst parents from the same socio-economic class). This can be correlated with the recent post about[4] how more confident and successful children born into prosperous families are and decides a lot of things for them in the long run. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgxp71tDgk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgxp71tDgk [2]: http://www.peopletopeople.com/Pages/default.aspx http://www.peopletopeople.com/Pages/default.aspx [3]: http://epgy.stanford.edu http://epgy.stanford.edu [4]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2296550 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2296550

mml 16y ago

Epstein published the horribly named "teen 2.0" if youre interested in his brand of thinking on the matter

teyc 16y ago

Formal education is probably the culprit here. It segments young adults into age groups, and then limits the entire days interaction to the same lot of children. You can't define people simply by what year they are born in. Some family environments provide children with an outlet where they end up with a very mature outlook, others don't. The problem with this stratification is that it soon becomes the "norm" for children. My kids would say, for example, he wouldn't talk to some other kids because they are in another grade or in another class. It is a totally artificial barrier. In days past, you'd have a grandfather or grandmother around. Kids would hang around their uncles and cousins workshops. There no distinct border. Children can see how they are expected to transition from one role to another. Fast forward to the present day, the "teen" is now effectively a market segment, and it has become "weird" or uncomfortable to deal with kids who are too young for them or adults who are uncool for them. The narrative behind TV shows and books only serve to reinforce this. As parents, we have a duty to help our children recognize these artificial barriers and help them overcome these perception.

wisty 16y ago
I'd blame homework, not education in general. Kids have gone to school since Shakespeare's time. But they went home and either helped their dad on the farm, helped their mum do the housework, got a part time job, or read books and hunted crawdads. Now, many people would consider it abuse, forcing a child of 14 to help out at work. Especially if they were only paid a nominal fee. They should be doing their homework, getting one-up on their peers. Unless they are from a family that doesn't value education, and then they should be learning to cope with a job market that won't value them.
- teyc 16y ago
  Quite the contrary. It is the availability of massive amount of idle time that creates a demand/outlet.
yters 16y ago
I blame child labor laws. Since children below a certain age are unemployable adults lock them away in school where they can't cause trouble and learn to do what they're told.

giardini 16y ago

SoftwareMaven says: "I'm always looking for good reading on this subject (truly guiding your kids to adulthood), so if you have any good pointers, send them on!" Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare.

Jach 16y ago
While not something to read, I always thought the bullet ant way ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ6rFKhyn0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ6rFKhyn0 ) was a nice way to go about it.

mmavnn 16y ago

Had a random moment and posted my pointers as a reply to the wrong parent ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2300374 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2300374 ). To reiterate I found both "Manhood" and "Raising Boys" by Steve Biddulph ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biddulph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biddulph ) and "Healing the Masculine Soul" (Dalby, http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Masculine-Soul-Restoration-Manhood/dp/0849944384 http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Masculine-Soul-Restoration-Man... ) helpful, although be warned that the last book is explicitly Christian in viewpoint.