7 ms·

It is our collective karma, to outsource cruelty to industrial animal farming. Even though I have become mostly vegetarian, it is quite tempting to buy meat fo

It is our collective karma, to outsource cruelty to industrial animal farming. Even though I have become mostly vegetarian, it is quite tempting to buy meat for the convenience and the fact that sometimes it is much cheaper than fresh vegetables (at least in the west). Human progress and social evolution has somehow come with greater compassion for fellow beings. Will our coming generations value compassion in itself and will that affect the way we eat/farm. Will an advanced alien visitor be shocked by our animal farming or will will they hunt us down for meat. I guess we should expect either based on our own behaviour.

sfj 6y ago
I find the assumptions embedded in this argument very strange. It brings up a huge number of questions. Only a conscious being would feel pain, so what is consciousness? Does it come down and embed itself into creatures that are born? If so, if they weren't born, would that be necessarily better? What if consciousness, if it didn't have a body to enter into, appeared in a different universe from ours with its own, possibly worse, sufferings? Wouldn't it be better to give the animal a full, relatively pain free life than the possibility that it would suffer greater in some other universe in some other dimension? Or does consciousness originate on the spot, somehow born along with the creature? In that case it would be better to not be born at all? Or would it be better to have more consciousness in the universe, despite the suffering an individual might experience, rather than otherwise? Is consciousness a good in itself? Would a universe devoid of all conscious beings be the perfect good, lonely, desolate, without meaning. Or one full of them, with shared misery to go around? All in all, it's seems quite a murky topic to be throwing around judgement on people about.
- arnoooooo 6y ago
  "a full, relatively pain free life" is not at all an accurate description of anything related to factory farming. Also, karma is not about judgment. It's about each individual's own state of consciousness.
  - sfj 6y ago
    > "a full, relatively pain free life" is not at all an accurate description of anything related to factory farming. You understand that I'm not saying relative to your life, right, but to some other life in some other universe? > Also, karma is not about judgment. It's about each individual's own state of consciousness. It seems to be about your individual biases and judgement, actually.
    - AQuantized 6y ago
      I don't understand how some hypothetical life in some hypothetical other universe is at all a sensible barometer to measure the quality of a life against? It seems much more sane to benchmark against the life we have and know here.
      - sfj 6y ago
        You are talking about animals that otherwise would not have been born. Therefore the only life you can theorize about is one unknown to us.
- ramrunner0xff 6y ago
  so by extension everything is just great, right? What if a person perishes from torture and war crimes? it at least lived part of its life happily before that. Who knows what would happen if the person was born in the sucks-to-be-there (TM) "dimension" (!?). what is consciousness? is the person who is reading this now conscious? who knows. let's all eat each other while we ponder these great questions. could be totally worse, yeah. ;)
  - sfj 6y ago
    > so by extension everything is just great, right? I never said this. > let's all eat each other while we ponder these great questions. Let's make sure no being is ever born again who might suffer. Seems totally good and just, therefore it must be true, right? What arrogance...
- LaEc 6y ago
  So much metaphysical blabbery to justify cruelty.
  - sfj 6y ago
    The metaphysical blabbery is the justification for this idea to judge raising animals for slaughter as cruel. It's not blabbery to question it.
    - LaEc 6y ago
      If modern factory farming processes are not obviously cruel to you, I don't know what would.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Well, it's murky, but some easy thought experiments might bring clarity: * Should we raise humans on factory farms, in order to increase the amount of conscious experience? * if so, and assuming that humans pay more attention to aversive stimuli than positive/neutral stimuli, should we deliberately torture them? Both propositions are obviously horrible. But why? The answer is similar to why the death of worms < chickens < pet dogs < people < great people. Consciousness is a matter of connected/integrated complexity; as a result, millions of worms do not eventually produce the depth and richness of human consciousness. Secondly, consciousness is dependent upon other conscious beings; our consciousness isn't really our own, it is part of a shared web. So, consciousness that does not participate in that shared web is less conscious, in a real sense, than consciousness that does. For both these reasons, if we value consciousness, the only real benefits of factory farmed chickens would come from how they help contribute to the overall conscious ecosystem. Perhaps they let us build more integrated complexity, in which case, thanks.
  - sfj 6y ago
    > Well, it's murky, but some easy thought experiments might bring clarity: * Should we raise humans on factory farms, in order to increase the amount of conscious experience? * if so, and assuming that humans pay more attention to aversive stimuli than positive/neutral stimuli, should we deliberately torture them? > Both propositions are obviously horrible. But why? The answer is similar to why the death of worms < chickens < pet dogs < people < great people. >Consciousness is a matter of connected/integrated complexity Can you prove this supposition, though? Would that make the internet conscious, for example? I would think not. I think the propositions you mentioned seem horrible because of an offshoot of our instinct to form tribes to survive better. It feels bad to torture people and other beings that help us survive, because that's integral to our survival. A lone human being has a much rougher time than a group does, and a group that trusts each other would survive better than where everyone is at each other's throats. My theory is that human beings need a religion to feel sane. If there isn't an organized one that they accept, they create one of their own. This is why these sort of "common sense" laws of morality (better to not raise animals in a factory) come into being. People need to believe in a higher set of laws than what man can provide, even if there isn't any real justification for them one way or the other.
Accacin 6y ago
- Even though I have become mostly vegetarian, it is quite tempting to buy meat for the convenience and the fact that sometimes it is much cheaper than fresh vegetables (at least in the west). That's what I hear a lot, but I'm not sure it's true. Since being 'plant-based' I've not really noticed much change in how much I spend on shopping. I tend to buy seasonal and what's on offer, plus I pretty much eat anything. Meat substitues tend to be the most expensive, but I try and avoid these products.
SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
> the fact that sometimes it is much cheaper than fresh vegetables (at least in the west). You need to eat vegetables anyway. You just replace meat with cheese, eggs and beans; all of them are cheaper.
drevil-v2 6y ago
> Will an advanced alien visitor be shocked by our animal farming or will will they hunt us down for meat. I guess we should expect either based on our own behaviour. What are your thoughts on where they will judge us for our pro-choice stance? Do you think that will shock them too?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Given that the likely average age difference between species is measured in the hundreds of millions of years, I doubt that anything we do would shock them at all. We are likely too inconsequential to even bother with examination.
  - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
    > We are likely too inconsequential to even bother with examination. I was with you until this part, there's simply no way that's true. Even if the universe was brimming with life, an advance species' scientists and would be foaming at the mouth to discover a new sentient species, just like ours do when we discover something new.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      Like our reaction to a newly-discovered virus? A billion-year-old species might take as much interest in us as we might take in a newly-discovered algae on a rock,
      - gnulinux 6y ago
        There are humans who foam at the mouth when they discover a new algae on a rock, in particular, people who study algae. One might imagine there will be a some aliens who study new sentient species and be very interested when they discover humans. It's a question of whether they have access to enough resources to reach us.
notechback 6y ago
For me the following is quite a convincing perspective: Slavery has existed for most of human history. The inherent cruelty has only in recent times become something understood widely as morally wrong and unacceptable. We have abolished slavery and while it exists in some forms and niche cases, the majority of mankind looks with disdain and hate at those still practicing it, and with shame at their ancestors for accepting and tolerating it. (Factory) farming/slaughter of animals has existed for most of human history. The inherent cruelty has only in recent times become something understood widely as morally wrong and unacceptable. We will abolish farming/slaughter of animals and while it will still exist in some forms and niche cases (eg pharmaceuticals?), the majority of mankind will look with disdain and hate at those still practicing it, and with shame at their ancestors for accepting and tolerating it.

sfj 6y ago

I find the assumptions embedded in this argument very strange. It brings up a huge number of questions. Only a conscious being would feel pain, so what is consciousness? Does it come down and embed itself into creatures that are born? If so, if they weren't born, would that be necessarily better? What if consciousness, if it didn't have a body to enter into, appeared in a different universe from ours with its own, possibly worse, sufferings? Wouldn't it be better to give the animal a full, relatively pain free life than the possibility that it would suffer greater in some other universe in some other dimension? Or does consciousness originate on the spot, somehow born along with the creature? In that case it would be better to not be born at all? Or would it be better to have more consciousness in the universe, despite the suffering an individual might experience, rather than otherwise? Is consciousness a good in itself? Would a universe devoid of all conscious beings be the perfect good, lonely, desolate, without meaning. Or one full of them, with shared misery to go around? All in all, it's seems quite a murky topic to be throwing around judgement on people about.

arnoooooo 6y ago
"a full, relatively pain free life" is not at all an accurate description of anything related to factory farming. Also, karma is not about judgment. It's about each individual's own state of consciousness.
- sfj 6y ago
  > "a full, relatively pain free life" is not at all an accurate description of anything related to factory farming. You understand that I'm not saying relative to your life, right, but to some other life in some other universe? > Also, karma is not about judgment. It's about each individual's own state of consciousness. It seems to be about your individual biases and judgement, actually.
  - AQuantized 6y ago
    I don't understand how some hypothetical life in some hypothetical other universe is at all a sensible barometer to measure the quality of a life against? It seems much more sane to benchmark against the life we have and know here.
    - sfj 6y ago
      You are talking about animals that otherwise would not have been born. Therefore the only life you can theorize about is one unknown to us.
ramrunner0xff 6y ago
so by extension everything is just great, right? What if a person perishes from torture and war crimes? it at least lived part of its life happily before that. Who knows what would happen if the person was born in the sucks-to-be-there (TM) "dimension" (!?). what is consciousness? is the person who is reading this now conscious? who knows. let's all eat each other while we ponder these great questions. could be totally worse, yeah. ;)
- sfj 6y ago
  > so by extension everything is just great, right? I never said this. > let's all eat each other while we ponder these great questions. Let's make sure no being is ever born again who might suffer. Seems totally good and just, therefore it must be true, right? What arrogance...
LaEc 6y ago
So much metaphysical blabbery to justify cruelty.
- sfj 6y ago
  The metaphysical blabbery is the justification for this idea to judge raising animals for slaughter as cruel. It's not blabbery to question it.
  - LaEc 6y ago
    If modern factory farming processes are not obviously cruel to you, I don't know what would.
dr_dshiv 6y ago
Well, it's murky, but some easy thought experiments might bring clarity: * Should we raise humans on factory farms, in order to increase the amount of conscious experience? * if so, and assuming that humans pay more attention to aversive stimuli than positive/neutral stimuli, should we deliberately torture them? Both propositions are obviously horrible. But why? The answer is similar to why the death of worms < chickens < pet dogs < people < great people. Consciousness is a matter of connected/integrated complexity; as a result, millions of worms do not eventually produce the depth and richness of human consciousness. Secondly, consciousness is dependent upon other conscious beings; our consciousness isn't really our own, it is part of a shared web. So, consciousness that does not participate in that shared web is less conscious, in a real sense, than consciousness that does. For both these reasons, if we value consciousness, the only real benefits of factory farmed chickens would come from how they help contribute to the overall conscious ecosystem. Perhaps they let us build more integrated complexity, in which case, thanks.
- sfj 6y ago
  > Well, it's murky, but some easy thought experiments might bring clarity: * Should we raise humans on factory farms, in order to increase the amount of conscious experience? * if so, and assuming that humans pay more attention to aversive stimuli than positive/neutral stimuli, should we deliberately torture them? > Both propositions are obviously horrible. But why? The answer is similar to why the death of worms < chickens < pet dogs < people < great people. >Consciousness is a matter of connected/integrated complexity Can you prove this supposition, though? Would that make the internet conscious, for example? I would think not. I think the propositions you mentioned seem horrible because of an offshoot of our instinct to form tribes to survive better. It feels bad to torture people and other beings that help us survive, because that's integral to our survival. A lone human being has a much rougher time than a group does, and a group that trusts each other would survive better than where everyone is at each other's throats. My theory is that human beings need a religion to feel sane. If there isn't an organized one that they accept, they create one of their own. This is why these sort of "common sense" laws of morality (better to not raise animals in a factory) come into being. People need to believe in a higher set of laws than what man can provide, even if there isn't any real justification for them one way or the other.

Accacin 6y ago

- Even though I have become mostly vegetarian, it is quite tempting to buy meat for the convenience and the fact that sometimes it is much cheaper than fresh vegetables (at least in the west). That's what I hear a lot, but I'm not sure it's true. Since being 'plant-based' I've not really noticed much change in how much I spend on shopping. I tend to buy seasonal and what's on offer, plus I pretty much eat anything. Meat substitues tend to be the most expensive, but I try and avoid these products.

SomeoneFromCA 6y ago

> the fact that sometimes it is much cheaper than fresh vegetables (at least in the west). You need to eat vegetables anyway. You just replace meat with cheese, eggs and beans; all of them are cheaper.

drevil-v2 6y ago

> Will an advanced alien visitor be shocked by our animal farming or will will they hunt us down for meat. I guess we should expect either based on our own behaviour. What are your thoughts on where they will judge us for our pro-choice stance? Do you think that will shock them too?

koheripbal 6y ago
Given that the likely average age difference between species is measured in the hundreds of millions of years, I doubt that anything we do would shock them at all. We are likely too inconsequential to even bother with examination.
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  > We are likely too inconsequential to even bother with examination. I was with you until this part, there's simply no way that's true. Even if the universe was brimming with life, an advance species' scientists and would be foaming at the mouth to discover a new sentient species, just like ours do when we discover something new.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Like our reaction to a newly-discovered virus? A billion-year-old species might take as much interest in us as we might take in a newly-discovered algae on a rock,
    - gnulinux 6y ago
      There are humans who foam at the mouth when they discover a new algae on a rock, in particular, people who study algae. One might imagine there will be a some aliens who study new sentient species and be very interested when they discover humans. It's a question of whether they have access to enough resources to reach us.

notechback 6y ago

For me the following is quite a convincing perspective: Slavery has existed for most of human history. The inherent cruelty has only in recent times become something understood widely as morally wrong and unacceptable. We have abolished slavery and while it exists in some forms and niche cases, the majority of mankind looks with disdain and hate at those still practicing it, and with shame at their ancestors for accepting and tolerating it. (Factory) farming/slaughter of animals has existed for most of human history. The inherent cruelty has only in recent times become something understood widely as morally wrong and unacceptable. We will abolish farming/slaughter of animals and while it will still exist in some forms and niche cases (eg pharmaceuticals?), the majority of mankind will look with disdain and hate at those still practicing it, and with shame at their ancestors for accepting and tolerating it.