5 ms·

I like the Swiss approach to overtime. 1. It can only be demanded for exceptional circumstances, with justification. "Poor planning or lack of staff are insuff

I like the Swiss approach to overtime. 1. It can only be demanded for exceptional circumstances, with justification. "Poor planning or lack of staff are insufficient." [1] 2. It must be compensated with 25% extra salary, or extra holiday (if the employee agrees). An employee cannot waive their right to this. 3. Even then, there is a limit by law on the number of extra hours you can do in a year, [2] says 170 hours per calendar year. Got a big crisis in January? Employer had better start planning ahead so everyone's time budget isn't exhausted by December. 4. Like many countries, Switzerland has an exception for "management". So you don't call your cleaner a "facility manager", the Swiss law specifies this as "management AND earning at least CHF 120'000 a year". [3] For context, according to expatica [4] the OECD calculated the Swiss average wage in 2017 as 62.3K. I personally think the principle that you cannot be expected to work "all hours that are necessary" unless you're paid around twice the average salary is brilliant and gets rid of a lot of potential abuse of this rule. [1] https://www.legalexpatgeneva.com/employment-law/contractual-statutory-overtime/ https://www.legalexpatgeneva.com/employment-law/contractual-... [2] https://www.ch.ch/en/overtime-and-extra-hours/ https://www.ch.ch/en/overtime-and-extra-hours/ [3] https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/personnel/employment-law/recording-working-hours.html https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/perso... [4] https://www.expatica.com/ch/working/employment-law/switzerland-minimum-wage-995110/ https://www.expatica.com/ch/working/employment-law/switzerla...

tsbinz 7y ago
If you look at [3], you'll see that it has been simplified and "manager" isn't required anymore - if you are flexible in your working hours and earn 120k+ (which isn't that much - if you work in tech or at a bank you'll likely earn more) the company can agree with you to not record working hours (there's still legal limits to how much you can work, of course) - this is relatively new, since 2016
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kwhitefoot 7y ago
Norway is much like this. There are limits on how much overtime can be worked in a given week that allow for unforeseen circumstances and another limit for the month that is a lot less than four times the allowed weekly overtime. Overtime compensation is higher I think, especially for weekend or night work. Seems to be working here, the Norwegian economy is quite good and unemployment is low. It helps that people here 'work to live' rather than 'live to work' and that the work ethic (in most people) is fairly strong, people get on with working rather than spending a lot of time chatting round the coffee machine.
rusticpenn 7y ago
In Germany, atleast under IGMETAL, we have the same set of rules.
esotericn 7y ago
> I personally think the principle that you cannot be expected to work "all hours that are necessary" unless you're paid around twice the average salary is brilliant and gets rid of a lot of potential abuse of this rule. You'd need to tweak the multiplier in different countries dependent on inequality. The median salary in the UK is around 29K GBP. I wouldn't say that 58K (70K CHF) is a "should be expected to exist at all times" salary.
- sweeneyrod 7y ago
  > The median salary in the UK is around 29K GBP. I wouldn't say that 58K (70K CHF) is a "should be expected to exist at all times" salary. No, but if someone on £58k is expected to work unreasonable amounts of overtime without sufficient compensation they probably won't suffer too much if they decide to switch jobs.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    I really hate that we should accept switching jobs as a solution instead of fixing the root cause.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Eh. IMO, almost anyone with a full time job is in the same position, with few exceptions everyone spends up to their means anyway.
- red_admiral 7y ago
  I know lots of people at UK universities in junior positions - sometimes even fixed-term contracts - on way less than 29K, who are still expected to work stupid hours. Or at least, no-one tells you that you have to officially, but when you inverview for moving up to a permanent contract you don't want to be the person with the weakest publication profile.
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ChuckNorris89 7y ago
In Austria, there was a new all-in(all inclusive) white collar contract type developed years ago, mostly aimed at founders, top management and executives where the expected large compensation would waive your rights to paid overtime as these positions often involved working "all hours that are necessary" but paid to match. However, that compensation limit was so low that lots of companies started abusing this and extended this type of contract to all employees not just the ones with high pay/responsibilities to the point where in job ads you now see the lack of these all-in contracts listed as a perk. In some scummy companies they forced all existing employees to change to these new all-in contracts and if you refused(which you were of course legally allowed to) you'd slowly be pushed out of the company via bad performance reviews and then dismissed.

tsbinz 7y ago

If you look at [3], you'll see that it has been simplified and "manager" isn't required anymore - if you are flexible in your working hours and earn 120k+ (which isn't that much - if you work in tech or at a bank you'll likely earn more) the company can agree with you to not record working hours (there's still legal limits to how much you can work, of course) - this is relatively new, since 2016

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kwhitefoot 7y ago

Norway is much like this. There are limits on how much overtime can be worked in a given week that allow for unforeseen circumstances and another limit for the month that is a lot less than four times the allowed weekly overtime. Overtime compensation is higher I think, especially for weekend or night work. Seems to be working here, the Norwegian economy is quite good and unemployment is low. It helps that people here 'work to live' rather than 'live to work' and that the work ethic (in most people) is fairly strong, people get on with working rather than spending a lot of time chatting round the coffee machine.

rusticpenn 7y ago

In Germany, atleast under IGMETAL, we have the same set of rules.

esotericn 7y ago

> I personally think the principle that you cannot be expected to work "all hours that are necessary" unless you're paid around twice the average salary is brilliant and gets rid of a lot of potential abuse of this rule. You'd need to tweak the multiplier in different countries dependent on inequality. The median salary in the UK is around 29K GBP. I wouldn't say that 58K (70K CHF) is a "should be expected to exist at all times" salary.

sweeneyrod 7y ago
> The median salary in the UK is around 29K GBP. I wouldn't say that 58K (70K CHF) is a "should be expected to exist at all times" salary. No, but if someone on £58k is expected to work unreasonable amounts of overtime without sufficient compensation they probably won't suffer too much if they decide to switch jobs.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  I really hate that we should accept switching jobs as a solution instead of fixing the root cause.
- esotericn 7y ago
  Eh. IMO, almost anyone with a full time job is in the same position, with few exceptions everyone spends up to their means anyway.
red_admiral 7y ago
I know lots of people at UK universities in junior positions - sometimes even fixed-term contracts - on way less than 29K, who are still expected to work stupid hours. Or at least, no-one tells you that you have to officially, but when you inverview for moving up to a permanent contract you don't want to be the person with the weakest publication profile.
- deleted 7y ago
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ChuckNorris89 7y ago

In Austria, there was a new all-in(all inclusive) white collar contract type developed years ago, mostly aimed at founders, top management and executives where the expected large compensation would waive your rights to paid overtime as these positions often involved working "all hours that are necessary" but paid to match. However, that compensation limit was so low that lots of companies started abusing this and extended this type of contract to all employees not just the ones with high pay/responsibilities to the point where in job ads you now see the lack of these all-in contracts listed as a perk. In some scummy companies they forced all existing employees to change to these new all-in contracts and if you refused(which you were of course legally allowed to) you'd slowly be pushed out of the company via bad performance reviews and then dismissed.