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Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend. If someon

Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend. If someone that didn't know they were predisposed to mental illness, is it applicable to dismiss their experience in order to maintain how safe LSD is? If any of this is true, are there any sources aside from "my friend's friend's brother took too much and now he is....", and what is the scientific explanation and do we know enough about the mind at all? I feel like LSD has a lot of contradictory information out there, and the proponents feel the need to hand waive concerns away because it is 'completely harmless and leaves your system in 10 hours'. But when nobody knows what they're actually getting because it doesn't exist in a legal framework, then it muddies the whole experience. People say certain doses can't do more effect than lower doses after a certain threshold. It seems like the same people say "omg man 1000ug you are going to fry your brain!" What is the truth? If it "just" had an FDA warning like "people with a family history of schizophrenia should not take it", that would be wildly better than what we have today. Please no explanation about shrooms. Just LSD the 'research chems' distributed as LSD.

knzhou 7y ago
This entertaining article lists what happened to the early LSD researchers: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychedelicists-so-weird/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psyched...
- vmception 7y ago
  entertaining, the comments are a good addendum but are just as speculative. maybe there just isn't good information, its just more of the contradictory information. "lasting permanent changes, obviously" "I’ve personally seen several people experience total amnesia after tripping on high doses." No further information. "Not lasting permanent changes" what. Names, sources, medical records, news reports, court cases, there has got to be something out there!
abacadaba 7y ago
Head over to the phantasytour forums, place is full of acid casualties.
gavinray 7y ago
Permanent schizophrenic zombie, maybe a bit extreme, but severe and traumatic long-lasting psychological damage is a not-uncommon phenomena. I had a fling with psychedelics in my teens, and everything was great until the one time it wasn't. I was taking psychedelics pretty much every weekend, and by my count have tried over a dozen of them. Had an experience with LSD which completely shook me to my core and gave me such severe PTSD and trauma that every night I started to have massive panic attacks and needed medical help. My entire worldview and perception of reality was shattered, I wasn't able to "anchor" myself anymore and it all felt like a sham. I was completely dissociated. I also got HPPD: to this day, everything has a sharpened oil-painting type texture to it that increases based on my anxiety level, and I'm sensitive to visual + aural stimuli (loud, brightly-colored places are unpleasant). If I get too anxious, I start to dissociate. It took ~2 years for the PTSD to subside for the most part, but still if I am under a lot of stress I am liable to have a panic attack and get flashbacks and need to go find somewhere quiet to sit somewhere alone to try to work through it. LSD being the particular substance has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. I was young, dumb, reckless, and played with fire then got burned. It could have happened with any of the other dozen psychedelics I took, but it just so happened to be LSD the one time that it did. But I want to add, that while giving me the most nightmarish, traumatizing experience of my life, the best/most positively-profound experience has also been on the same substance. I grew up in a pretty abusive household and didn't do well forming relationships growing up, and had a lot of anger and resentment in my worldview. After taking psychedelics (LSD, 2C-B, Shrooms) and MDMA with the right group of people a few times, my entire perspective shifted. For the first time in my life, it felt like I understand how it felt to be loved, and what "love" was, and how we're "all in this together" so we may as well be good to each other while we're here. It's been a long time since I've touched any of that stuff and I'm not sure I ever will again, but I don't think it's inherently bad or good. Psychedelics are like knives, they're neutral - can be used as a tool or cut the hell out of you if you're reckless. --- Footnote: For context, this was probably due to life circumstances/psyche at the time. I was in a relationship with a pretty toxic partner, and my mental state wasn't the greatest. In hindsight, it seems like I was almost begging for a "slap in the face" if you will.
- vmception 7y ago
  Did you try LSD after that time in your teens? I think it is a bit too reductive to say they're neutral, just yet, but I am willing to say they can be used responsibly if the right information actually existed - but like with any science I am open to changing that if the conclusions were found to be different. Again let's just stick with acid instead of all psychedelics.
GuB-42 7y ago
When I looked up into illegal drugs, I found it very difficult to find reliable data. On one hand you have anti-drug people, usually backed by the authorities. Listen to them and all drugs will make your body rot, give you hallucinations like datura, and for some reason cause complete addiction after a single dose. Drug users on the other hand will tell you that it not as bad as alcohol/tobacco/coffee/... that concerns are unfounded, that police is the only risk, etc... The truth is almost impossible to find. Even peer reviewed research is lacking. I guess there are several reasons for that. Availability of controlled substances. Ethical concerns regarding experimentation. Issues with neutrality. Now from what I gathered about LSD (and psychedelics in general): these are very random. If you take a reasonable dose, you are most likely going to have a nice, fun trip and nothing more. But it can also fuck you up for years, or maybe bring significant improvement in your life. High doses increase the chance of extreme effects and nasty bad trips, but it shouldn't kill you unless you are dealing with industrial quantities. The substance itself is not addictive, but the social context may be. The big problem is that there is no way to tell how it will go for you. There are ways to improve your chances, but it will always be random. As for fake LSD, there are cheap reagent tests for that. They are not 100% reliable but that's better than nothing. You can also send your sample anonymously to a lab that will do a much more accurate GC/MS analysis for you.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > Drug users on the other hand will tell you that it not as bad as alcohol/tobacco/coffee/... that concerns are unfounded, that police is the only risk, etc... Sure, some ("plenty", in absolute numbers) will tell you this, but I don't recall being in many forums where that attitude doesn't get significant pushback (as opposed to the anti-drug community). The modern "pro drug" community has a fairly significant culture of safety within it, unlike back in the sixties. > The truth is almost impossible to find. There is plentiful anecdotal evidence online. Any clinical evidence, if they ever get around to doing it in any significant volumes, will be utterly miniscule (and I highly doubt more trustworthy, considering what you're working with, and the size of the tests that will be done) to the massive volume of trip reports and Q&A available online, much from people who know very well what they're talking about, not unlike enthusiasts in any domain. > Now from what I gathered about LSD (and psychedelics in general): these are very random. Depends on one's definition of random. > If you take a reasonable dose, you are most likely going to have a nice, fun trip and nothing more. Effects vary by dose of course, but I've seen little anecdotal evidence that suggest high doses have a different outcome, and plenty that suggests the opposite. > But it can also fuck you up for years, or maybe bring significant improvement in your life. See: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy > The big problem is that there is no way to tell how it will go for you. There are ways to improve your chances, but it will always be random. I believe this to be true, but don't forget the fallacy noted above. That said, these things are not toys - extreme caution is warranted.
logicslave 7y ago
The answer to this is really easy. Go to any mental institution and get to know the patients. An institution where they are allowed out, but are still in an enclosed area. A majority of the patients will have had some sort of heavy drug use in their past. Sure, whats causation and whats correlation, but its pretty clear that drugs cause mental breaks. How do I know this? I have mental illness in my family and have spent considerable amounts of time at those facilities.
- vmception 7y ago
  That's unfortunate. Yes, I think it is clear too, but to so many it isn't that I have to figure out where is the truth? What circumstances cause what? Is it worthwhile to really avoid all psychonauts given the path they are on? For the ones with positive experiences on the total other side of the spectrum that take them into the spiritual mumbo jumbo, is this worth listening to? Is there a functional difference between the path the microdosers are taking and the ones that use 1000ug occassionally (ie. after smart people's 2.5 year stint at Google are they all on the path to a mental hospital?) So many questions. Where is the medical journal that says your conclusion "vast majority of mental health patients have a self-reported history of drug use of these specific drugs". I guess it can't exist because its crazy people self reporting a variety of substances that even the user would have no idea what was actually given to them.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  > Sure, whats causation and whats correlation, but its pretty clear What? How is it clear? As you wrote yourself, correlation is not causation.
  - logicslave 7y ago
    I was just protecting against the inevitable counter argument. The proof is what I have seen with my own two eyes
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rsync 7y ago
"Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend." Tangential, and not an answer to your question, but if you're like me, you will be fascinated to learn that there is a drug (MPPP, synthetic opiate) that if cooked incorrectly yields "MPTP"[1] which will give you Parkinsons. As in, forever. You take this drug (at any age) and then you have Parkinsons for the rest of your life. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP
- vmception 7y ago
  so therefore it stands to reason that other substances can exist that rewrite your mind to make you ineffective at other behaviors
  - iiv 7y ago
    I mean, not really. 1. There is one substance that rewrites your mind. 2. There is more than one substance that rewrites your mind. Are very different postulates.
    - vmception 7y ago
      1 opens the existence of 2 as possible
mistermann 7y ago
> But when nobody knows what they're actually getting because it doesn't exist in a legal framework, then it muddies the whole experience. Trust (knowing the chemist directly, indirectly, ...) in specific individuals > a largely unknown (but known to be imperfect) system, for many people anyways. Obviously this isn't practical for the not well connected, but it's all we got for now. But as for your question, I've seen little to suggest it's anything more than war on drugs propaganda and hearsay. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
- vmception 7y ago
  yes this is my current predilection, but I can also concede that there are limitations in getting the truth of the matter. even in this very thread there is someone that has been in the mental hospitals and seen problems "with their own two eyes", but is unwilling to name names as part of a code to remove any social/legal/professional consequence for themselves or the "crazy" people there
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Dipping ones toes in the water is always an option, but I heard a rumour psilocybin is the safer route, due to less likelihood of illegitimate product. If you live in a big enough city, there should be meetup groups where you could meet some people and have long discussions. Is your interest only curiosity, or is it medical related? Sorry, on mobile and pressed for time so can't scroll through the thread..
badpun 7y ago
> Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend. If someone that didn't know they were predisposed to mental illness, is it applicable to dismiss their experience in order to maintain how safe LSD is? My good friend took "something" once (hard to tell what the dealer is selling you) and ended up in a mental institution, and is now in fact officially mentally disabled and on drugs for life. The drugs keep him stable enough that he's able to work, although he's still just a shadow of his former self.
- vmception 7y ago
  What was he expecting to have taken?

knzhou 7y ago

This entertaining article lists what happened to the early LSD researchers: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychedelicists-so-weird/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psyched...

vmception 7y ago
entertaining, the comments are a good addendum but are just as speculative. maybe there just isn't good information, its just more of the contradictory information. "lasting permanent changes, obviously" "I’ve personally seen several people experience total amnesia after tripping on high doses." No further information. "Not lasting permanent changes" what. Names, sources, medical records, news reports, court cases, there has got to be something out there!

abacadaba 7y ago

Head over to the phantasytour forums, place is full of acid casualties.

gavinray 7y ago

Permanent schizophrenic zombie, maybe a bit extreme, but severe and traumatic long-lasting psychological damage is a not-uncommon phenomena. I had a fling with psychedelics in my teens, and everything was great until the one time it wasn't. I was taking psychedelics pretty much every weekend, and by my count have tried over a dozen of them. Had an experience with LSD which completely shook me to my core and gave me such severe PTSD and trauma that every night I started to have massive panic attacks and needed medical help. My entire worldview and perception of reality was shattered, I wasn't able to "anchor" myself anymore and it all felt like a sham. I was completely dissociated. I also got HPPD: to this day, everything has a sharpened oil-painting type texture to it that increases based on my anxiety level, and I'm sensitive to visual + aural stimuli (loud, brightly-colored places are unpleasant). If I get too anxious, I start to dissociate. It took ~2 years for the PTSD to subside for the most part, but still if I am under a lot of stress I am liable to have a panic attack and get flashbacks and need to go find somewhere quiet to sit somewhere alone to try to work through it. LSD being the particular substance has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. I was young, dumb, reckless, and played with fire then got burned. It could have happened with any of the other dozen psychedelics I took, but it just so happened to be LSD the one time that it did. But I want to add, that while giving me the most nightmarish, traumatizing experience of my life, the best/most positively-profound experience has also been on the same substance. I grew up in a pretty abusive household and didn't do well forming relationships growing up, and had a lot of anger and resentment in my worldview. After taking psychedelics (LSD, 2C-B, Shrooms) and MDMA with the right group of people a few times, my entire perspective shifted. For the first time in my life, it felt like I understand how it felt to be loved, and what "love" was, and how we're "all in this together" so we may as well be good to each other while we're here. It's been a long time since I've touched any of that stuff and I'm not sure I ever will again, but I don't think it's inherently bad or good. Psychedelics are like knives, they're neutral - can be used as a tool or cut the hell out of you if you're reckless. --- Footnote: For context, this was probably due to life circumstances/psyche at the time. I was in a relationship with a pretty toxic partner, and my mental state wasn't the greatest. In hindsight, it seems like I was almost begging for a "slap in the face" if you will.

vmception 7y ago
Did you try LSD after that time in your teens? I think it is a bit too reductive to say they're neutral, just yet, but I am willing to say they can be used responsibly if the right information actually existed - but like with any science I am open to changing that if the conclusions were found to be different. Again let's just stick with acid instead of all psychedelics.

GuB-42 7y ago

When I looked up into illegal drugs, I found it very difficult to find reliable data. On one hand you have anti-drug people, usually backed by the authorities. Listen to them and all drugs will make your body rot, give you hallucinations like datura, and for some reason cause complete addiction after a single dose. Drug users on the other hand will tell you that it not as bad as alcohol/tobacco/coffee/... that concerns are unfounded, that police is the only risk, etc... The truth is almost impossible to find. Even peer reviewed research is lacking. I guess there are several reasons for that. Availability of controlled substances. Ethical concerns regarding experimentation. Issues with neutrality. Now from what I gathered about LSD (and psychedelics in general): these are very random. If you take a reasonable dose, you are most likely going to have a nice, fun trip and nothing more. But it can also fuck you up for years, or maybe bring significant improvement in your life. High doses increase the chance of extreme effects and nasty bad trips, but it shouldn't kill you unless you are dealing with industrial quantities. The substance itself is not addictive, but the social context may be. The big problem is that there is no way to tell how it will go for you. There are ways to improve your chances, but it will always be random. As for fake LSD, there are cheap reagent tests for that. They are not 100% reliable but that's better than nothing. You can also send your sample anonymously to a lab that will do a much more accurate GC/MS analysis for you.

mistermann 7y ago
> Drug users on the other hand will tell you that it not as bad as alcohol/tobacco/coffee/... that concerns are unfounded, that police is the only risk, etc... Sure, some ("plenty", in absolute numbers) will tell you this, but I don't recall being in many forums where that attitude doesn't get significant pushback (as opposed to the anti-drug community). The modern "pro drug" community has a fairly significant culture of safety within it, unlike back in the sixties. > The truth is almost impossible to find. There is plentiful anecdotal evidence online. Any clinical evidence, if they ever get around to doing it in any significant volumes, will be utterly miniscule (and I highly doubt more trustworthy, considering what you're working with, and the size of the tests that will be done) to the massive volume of trip reports and Q&A available online, much from people who know very well what they're talking about, not unlike enthusiasts in any domain. > Now from what I gathered about LSD (and psychedelics in general): these are very random. Depends on one's definition of random. > If you take a reasonable dose, you are most likely going to have a nice, fun trip and nothing more. Effects vary by dose of course, but I've seen little anecdotal evidence that suggest high doses have a different outcome, and plenty that suggests the opposite. > But it can also fuck you up for years, or maybe bring significant improvement in your life. See: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy > The big problem is that there is no way to tell how it will go for you. There are ways to improve your chances, but it will always be random. I believe this to be true, but don't forget the fallacy noted above. That said, these things are not toys - extreme caution is warranted.

logicslave 7y ago

The answer to this is really easy. Go to any mental institution and get to know the patients. An institution where they are allowed out, but are still in an enclosed area. A majority of the patients will have had some sort of heavy drug use in their past. Sure, whats causation and whats correlation, but its pretty clear that drugs cause mental breaks. How do I know this? I have mental illness in my family and have spent considerable amounts of time at those facilities.

vmception 7y ago
That's unfortunate. Yes, I think it is clear too, but to so many it isn't that I have to figure out where is the truth? What circumstances cause what? Is it worthwhile to really avoid all psychonauts given the path they are on? For the ones with positive experiences on the total other side of the spectrum that take them into the spiritual mumbo jumbo, is this worth listening to? Is there a functional difference between the path the microdosers are taking and the ones that use 1000ug occassionally (ie. after smart people's 2.5 year stint at Google are they all on the path to a mental hospital?) So many questions. Where is the medical journal that says your conclusion "vast majority of mental health patients have a self-reported history of drug use of these specific drugs". I guess it can't exist because its crazy people self reporting a variety of substances that even the user would have no idea what was actually given to them.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
> Sure, whats causation and whats correlation, but its pretty clear What? How is it clear? As you wrote yourself, correlation is not causation.
- logicslave 7y ago
  I was just protecting against the inevitable counter argument. The proof is what I have seen with my own two eyes

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rsync 7y ago

"Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend." Tangential, and not an answer to your question, but if you're like me, you will be fascinated to learn that there is a drug (MPPP, synthetic opiate) that if cooked incorrectly yields "MPTP"[1] which will give you Parkinsons. As in, forever. You take this drug (at any age) and then you have Parkinsons for the rest of your life. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP

vmception 7y ago
so therefore it stands to reason that other substances can exist that rewrite your mind to make you ineffective at other behaviors
- iiv 7y ago
  I mean, not really. 1. There is one substance that rewrites your mind. 2. There is more than one substance that rewrites your mind. Are very different postulates.
  - vmception 7y ago
    1 opens the existence of 2 as possible

mistermann 7y ago

> But when nobody knows what they're actually getting because it doesn't exist in a legal framework, then it muddies the whole experience. Trust (knowing the chemist directly, indirectly, ...) in specific individuals > a largely unknown (but known to be imperfect) system, for many people anyways. Obviously this isn't practical for the not well connected, but it's all we got for now. But as for your question, I've seen little to suggest it's anything more than war on drugs propaganda and hearsay. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers

vmception 7y ago
yes this is my current predilection, but I can also concede that there are limitations in getting the truth of the matter. even in this very thread there is someone that has been in the mental hospitals and seen problems "with their own two eyes", but is unwilling to name names as part of a code to remove any social/legal/professional consequence for themselves or the "crazy" people there
- mistermann 7y ago
  Dipping ones toes in the water is always an option, but I heard a rumour psilocybin is the safer route, due to less likelihood of illegitimate product. If you live in a big enough city, there should be meetup groups where you could meet some people and have long discussions. Is your interest only curiosity, or is it medical related? Sorry, on mobile and pressed for time so can't scroll through the thread..

badpun 7y ago

> Has someone that thought they were taking LSD ever turned into a permanent schizophrenic zombie or in a mental institution, or is it all urban legend. If someone that didn't know they were predisposed to mental illness, is it applicable to dismiss their experience in order to maintain how safe LSD is? My good friend took "something" once (hard to tell what the dealer is selling you) and ended up in a mental institution, and is now in fact officially mentally disabled and on drugs for life. The drugs keep him stable enough that he's able to work, although he's still just a shadow of his former self.

vmception 7y ago
What was he expecting to have taken?