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Things Your Startup Should Know about Email Marketing Companies

39 points by g0atbutt 16y ago

eli 16y ago
I can't watch the video right now, but is he talking about a specific provider? Those are definitely things to watch out for, but not all providers have those problems.
- noahkagan 16y ago
  Most comments were about Aweber and Mailchimp. I really like Mailchimp so I don't want the video to be taken the wrong way but a few of our challenges were with them. Aweber (who we used first) on the other hand got hacked (twice!) and did not bother to mention that publicly. They did the first time, http://www.problogger.net/archives/2009/12/22/aweber-makes-a-statement-about-their-data-being-compromised/ http://www.problogger.net/archives/2009/12/22/aweber-makes-a... We've moved to Sendgrid.
  - eli 16y ago
    Thanks. Sendgrid looks pretty good. We do pretty high-volume newsletters and are using Silverpop now and Lyris/EmailLabs before that. Silverpop is OK (the frontend UI is kinda crappy, the API is functional but ugly, and the backend is PowerMTA which is pretty solid). They don't require double opt-in and give you control over the unsubscribe process if you want it. Once you start sending millions of messages a month, the pricing on MailChimp or Constant Contact (or SendGrid for that matter) doesn't really scale. Silverpop was also recently hacked. I imagine email service providers make for easy targets. Email addresses are easy to sell, but aren't typically protected as well as obviously valuable information like credit card numbers.
  - auston 16y ago
    Postmark is where it's really at. link: http://postmarkapp.com/ http://postmarkapp.com/
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
mgkimsal 16y ago
Using critsend here - precisely because I wanted the control I can only get with doing it inhouse. The 'value' that companies like icontact, mailchimp, etc. just isn't something that speaks to the needs of IT geeks. For certain people, it's obviously fine - possibly necessary - but far too limiting for developer/geeks.
- noahkagan 16y ago
  Why did you choose critsend?
  - mgkimsal 16y ago
    Initially pricing, and the 'only pay a little up front' aspect - no monthly contracts. I just charge up the account now and then. It used to be $1/1000 - dropped in Jan to half that (yay). The setup wasn't too hard, and ntoper and a couple others were in IRC to ask questions of (and they provided some more support via email as well). I was a transition customer - started about a year ago when they were putting the polishing touches on their public offering. What I had was rather beta - no self-serve payments, reporting didn't work too well - but it's improved a lot in the last year (and even a year ago it worked for what I needed). edit: the support was primarily me setting up domain keys and such on my end with DNS entries - the instructions weren't as clear to a non-sysadmin mortal such as myself a year ago. So, pricing, pay as you go, IRC support and friendly people. Does that help?
    - noahkagan 16y ago
      Interesting. I've liked Sendgrid since when we've had issues of peoples email going to spam folder they are pretty helpful in tracking down why. (mostly saying gmail is a black whole (: )
      - mgkimsal 16y ago
        I hadn't learned of sendgrid prior to going with critsend. That said, critsend has been fine with supporting my few issues, and until they let me down I'll keep trusting them :)
MicahWedemeyer 16y ago
Happy user of mailchimp here... I think his points are very valid, and I appreciate his "mailchimp might be perfect for you" comment. As someone who went from doing it in-house to Mailchimp, I'll offer some advice: Try an email marketer first, and only bring it in-house if you find that the marketer can't do what you want or is too restrictive. There are an infinite number of things to spend your time on, and sending emails (and having them look good, arrive, get stats, etc) is a huuuuge time sink. If mass emails are not the core of your business then you should be outsourcing it. Build your core, buy the rest.
JonLim 16y ago
Awesome watch. I am the Product Manager of PostageApp (http://www.postageapp.com http://www.postageapp.com) and we're under heavy development still, but it's always good to hear the problems that heavy users are running into with email solutions / marketing companies. Definitely going to write them down and see how we can make sure we solve some of those problems. Thanks Noah!
- brianbreslin 16y ago
  You guys aware of http://postmarkapp.com http://postmarkapp.com? You guys might have problems with naming issues or trademarks. Nice design though
  - JonLim 16y ago
    Very aware! I believe our products are around the same age, and we happened to go one direction and they went another, however our paths are getting ready to converge (As we will be creating a similar offering.) Not sure on the naming issues or trademarks, but it's definitely one of my concerns. Thanks for the refresher, I should look into it.
khangtoh 16y ago
Every unsubscribe page should be like this http://www.groupon.com/austin/unsubscribe http://www.groupon.com/austin/unsubscribe
bigiain 16y ago
I'd like to mention Campaign Monitor, a local to me (Sydney.AU) startup in this area. They've addressed at least a few of those issues. items 1, 2, 4, and 5 are not problems with them, and 6 and 8 probably aren't a problem either if you don't consider connecting via their API "hard". (No affiliation apart from being a very satisfied customer/user)
juddlyon 16y ago
Mailchimp & Campaign Monitor are the class of the bunch, you can't go wrong with either one. Easy templating, nice stats, A/B testing, autoresponders, API, good customer service. iContact and Vertical Response are my next two favs, especially the latter if you send direct mail. I've never used the enterprise solutions, but when I was researching for a client I was gravitating towards ExactTarget. You can do some pretty sophisticated rules for who gets sent what and when based on their behavior.

39 points by g0atbutt 16y ago

eli 16y ago

I can't watch the video right now, but is he talking about a specific provider? Those are definitely things to watch out for, but not all providers have those problems.

noahkagan 16y ago
Most comments were about Aweber and Mailchimp. I really like Mailchimp so I don't want the video to be taken the wrong way but a few of our challenges were with them. Aweber (who we used first) on the other hand got hacked (twice!) and did not bother to mention that publicly. They did the first time, http://www.problogger.net/archives/2009/12/22/aweber-makes-a-statement-about-their-data-being-compromised/ http://www.problogger.net/archives/2009/12/22/aweber-makes-a... We've moved to Sendgrid.
- eli 16y ago
  Thanks. Sendgrid looks pretty good. We do pretty high-volume newsletters and are using Silverpop now and Lyris/EmailLabs before that. Silverpop is OK (the frontend UI is kinda crappy, the API is functional but ugly, and the backend is PowerMTA which is pretty solid). They don't require double opt-in and give you control over the unsubscribe process if you want it. Once you start sending millions of messages a month, the pricing on MailChimp or Constant Contact (or SendGrid for that matter) doesn't really scale. Silverpop was also recently hacked. I imagine email service providers make for easy targets. Email addresses are easy to sell, but aren't typically protected as well as obviously valuable information like credit card numbers.
- auston 16y ago
  Postmark is where it's really at. link: http://postmarkapp.com/ http://postmarkapp.com/
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

mgkimsal 16y ago

Using critsend here - precisely because I wanted the control I can only get with doing it inhouse. The 'value' that companies like icontact, mailchimp, etc. just isn't something that speaks to the needs of IT geeks. For certain people, it's obviously fine - possibly necessary - but far too limiting for developer/geeks.

noahkagan 16y ago
Why did you choose critsend?
- mgkimsal 16y ago
  Initially pricing, and the 'only pay a little up front' aspect - no monthly contracts. I just charge up the account now and then. It used to be $1/1000 - dropped in Jan to half that (yay). The setup wasn't too hard, and ntoper and a couple others were in IRC to ask questions of (and they provided some more support via email as well). I was a transition customer - started about a year ago when they were putting the polishing touches on their public offering. What I had was rather beta - no self-serve payments, reporting didn't work too well - but it's improved a lot in the last year (and even a year ago it worked for what I needed). edit: the support was primarily me setting up domain keys and such on my end with DNS entries - the instructions weren't as clear to a non-sysadmin mortal such as myself a year ago. So, pricing, pay as you go, IRC support and friendly people. Does that help?
  - noahkagan 16y ago
    Interesting. I've liked Sendgrid since when we've had issues of peoples email going to spam folder they are pretty helpful in tracking down why. (mostly saying gmail is a black whole (: )
    - mgkimsal 16y ago
      I hadn't learned of sendgrid prior to going with critsend. That said, critsend has been fine with supporting my few issues, and until they let me down I'll keep trusting them :)

MicahWedemeyer 16y ago

Happy user of mailchimp here... I think his points are very valid, and I appreciate his "mailchimp might be perfect for you" comment. As someone who went from doing it in-house to Mailchimp, I'll offer some advice: Try an email marketer first, and only bring it in-house if you find that the marketer can't do what you want or is too restrictive. There are an infinite number of things to spend your time on, and sending emails (and having them look good, arrive, get stats, etc) is a huuuuge time sink. If mass emails are not the core of your business then you should be outsourcing it. Build your core, buy the rest.

JonLim 16y ago

Awesome watch. I am the Product Manager of PostageApp (http://www.postageapp.com http://www.postageapp.com) and we're under heavy development still, but it's always good to hear the problems that heavy users are running into with email solutions / marketing companies. Definitely going to write them down and see how we can make sure we solve some of those problems. Thanks Noah!

brianbreslin 16y ago
You guys aware of http://postmarkapp.com http://postmarkapp.com? You guys might have problems with naming issues or trademarks. Nice design though
- JonLim 16y ago
  Very aware! I believe our products are around the same age, and we happened to go one direction and they went another, however our paths are getting ready to converge (As we will be creating a similar offering.) Not sure on the naming issues or trademarks, but it's definitely one of my concerns. Thanks for the refresher, I should look into it.

khangtoh 16y ago

Every unsubscribe page should be like this http://www.groupon.com/austin/unsubscribe http://www.groupon.com/austin/unsubscribe

bigiain 16y ago

I'd like to mention Campaign Monitor, a local to me (Sydney.AU) startup in this area. They've addressed at least a few of those issues. items 1, 2, 4, and 5 are not problems with them, and 6 and 8 probably aren't a problem either if you don't consider connecting via their API "hard". (No affiliation apart from being a very satisfied customer/user)

juddlyon 16y ago

Mailchimp & Campaign Monitor are the class of the bunch, you can't go wrong with either one. Easy templating, nice stats, A/B testing, autoresponders, API, good customer service. iContact and Vertical Response are my next two favs, especially the latter if you send direct mail. I've never used the enterprise solutions, but when I was researching for a client I was gravitating towards ExactTarget. You can do some pretty sophisticated rules for who gets sent what and when based on their behavior.