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I think you hit the nail on the head here. This person tries to get us to believe they're stupid; but, if they believe that themselves, truly, then they're goin

I think you hit the nail on the head here. This person tries to get us to believe they're stupid; but, if they believe that themselves, truly, then they're going to create self-fulfilling prophecies. They need to find something they're interested in to work on every day. 8 hours is a long time each day to be doing something, it's better if you're interested in it, so that at least some of those hours are fun. And I will say, and I have often repeated that software development, programming, is a horrible job if you don't love it. Programming sucks if you don't enjoy it. It's too much thinking, too much abstracting, too much typing, too many meetings, and horribly, horribly boring - unless it's your thing, and then it's not. OP, don't force it to be your thing if it's not your thing. You may also have some depression. It may genuinely be worth seeing someone about that to help you navigate it and grow and cope with it. Depression is horrible, and any step that can be done to help yourself through it is a huge win for your own peace.

Mirioron 7y ago
Here's the question that inevitably pops up from this: what do you do if nothing interests you in this way? There are interesting things, sure, but those are usually fleeting. You'll be interested in something for a month or two and then lose interest in it. You can't earn a living on that. What do you do then?
- notduncansmith 7y ago
  That sounds like a job for a mental health specialist. There are psychological reasons underlying the initial interests and the subsequent fading of interest, and the right specialist will be able to identify those and use them to guide you down the path to sticking to something.
  - enitihas 7y ago
    I am not really sure a mental health specialist can help you if nothing interests you. It's difficult to imagine every human being having interest in making something. A lot of people may just want to live a chill life. Unfortunately, UBI is very far away, so whether something interests you or not, you got to pick up the least worst choice and get on with it.
  - maps7 7y ago
    I'd find it more strange if something did interest people for over 40/50 years. Trains for example - that's a long time to be interested in trains!
  - prostheticvamp 7y ago
    Speaking as a mental health specialist: No that is not. We treat disease. Pretending we can fine-tune personality traits is quackery, and no respectable mental health specialist would lay claim to that. But don’t worry - quacks abound, and they even take your insurance.
    - irishcoffee 7y ago
      How does one go about identifying a non-quack in your field? I’m in the market and I’ve been disappointed with the 2 I’ve seen...
      - andrewnc 7y ago
        My wife is a therapist, her suggestion is to go call up the largest local University and talk to folks in their psych department for recommendations. They're usually much more science driven and grounded.
    - t-writescode 7y ago
      I was more thinking that not finding enjoyment in anything would be indicative of depression and that would be something that a mental health specialist can help a person navigate.
    - jawns 7y ago
      I think most people have a capacity for introspection, but some need more direction than others to actually do it and connect the dots. So maybe a core personality trait is largely unchangeable, but being able to recognize its existence and zero in on how it is affecting your life can lead to some real breakthroughs. I don't know if the best person to help someone through this process of introspection is a psychologist or a life coach or a spiritual director or a teacher or a stranger in a coffee shop, but it seems like there's a place for it somewhere.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      To be fair though, a part of ADHD can manifest itself this way. From what I've read it's a pretty common complaint that people with ADHD have trouble doing things they're not interested in. In a lot of those cases you also hear about how their interests change all the time.
- trwhite 7y ago
  This is a really interesting question and I'd love to know what other people think of it. I think you have to constantly be reading and learning about things on your periphery. It can take a long time before your interest in something is strong enough to decide to do it for a living.
- aidenn0 7y ago
  A while back, I overheard a coworker of mine was complaining about a cousin that was couch-surfing his way through relatives, not getting a job, just playing video games all day and moving on to a different relative or friend after getting kicked out of the last place he stayed. The coworker and the person he was talking to were both very confused by how anyone could ever want to live that way. I had a very different reaction: if I had been aware that this was an option when I was 22, I totally would have done that, but I just never considered it as a possibility. Even almost 20 years later it still sounds like a great life, other than the soul-crushing guilt and shame I would feel...
  - clawedjird 7y ago
    Did he actually enjoy living that way? To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality...
    - craftinator 7y ago
      > To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality... I think that is the point of the parent comment. Some people think it is horrible, like a result of having no options, and some people think it is ideal! Personally, I would go crazy without deadlines hanging over my head and lots of resources to tackle those deadlines with.
  - wolco 7y ago
    A lot of people at age 22 live with their parents and play video games or do whatever.
- duxup 7y ago
  At least as far as jobs go, there are plenty of jobs you can do ok with ... and not actually be interested in it. Programming is just a really hard one to do if you're not interested, possibly only because of the number of people who ARE interested (or at least some point were and they got to the point they could actually just surf along).
- probably_wrong 7y ago
  According to my father, the business world in my country is currently experiencing difficulties finding talent because, in the words of his bosses, "young people today are too soft and quit when things get slightly difficult". While there are many other factors here that I don't want to get into (such as loyalty being a two-way street and so on), I often wonder whether the idea of "this is not a hobby, it's a job" might have a bit of truth in it. At the end of the day, honest work is better than no work, and we all have to be adults at some point at start pulling our weight. Would I prefer everyone to have UBI and work only if they want to? Definitely. But not everyone can be passionate about what they do (is anyone really passionate about packing items for Amazon?) and I guess sometimes you draw the short stick.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    I grew up doing everything the hard way, self taught holding my own with highly educated peers and spending years on very hard problems to build a future worth having. I am still doing it the hard way but vastly preferring doing it for myself, instead of for ungrateful bosses that pay penny on the dollar for the privilege to ignore their employees and only ever do something to fix unfulfilled promises when people have already been burnt and it’s too late. I’ve heard again and again from peers that bosses only come round to shitty situations when good working employees threaten to leave and by then it’s too late. This time it’s the bosses drawing the short stick and they are complaining like they are entitled to employees. You want people to stay? Make it happen, don’t whine. I have been in management, I know what it takes. Man up.
  - growlist 7y ago
    An older colleague of mine a few years back used to come out with some philosophical pearls of wisdom from time to time for us young'uns. I remember him saying once: 'Of course it's not going to be easy all the time - that's why they call it work'.
  - kaybe 7y ago
    You know, I'm reminded of the way the CCC conferences are run. Basically, everything (except the toilet cleaners I think) is done by volunteers (aka the people visiting the conferences). I think usually about a third of the attendants do at least a little bit. You just sign up in the system and choose a shift. Some jobs need an introduction and your account is cleared for them once you attended. If you meet a certain amount of shifts worked you get a t-shirt and preference at next-year-ticket purchases. What you usually see is even the people with the menial jobs getting really into them as well. The ushers will experiment with new routing to make it faster, the people running the checkroom will optimize the hell out of it and have a competition with the next shift.. it's good fun. This works because a) they want the whole endeavor to be a success, b) they are allowed to freely fulfill the roles and experiment, c) nobody in particular and everyone in total profits from the work done, d) you can pick up one shift or 20, it's up to you and surely a couple more. I think it is possible to be passionate about packaging items for sure, but not like this. So I wouldn't say it's impossible to run society with UBI, but it will have to look quite different.
- dusted 7y ago
  This. I recall clearly how amazing mini quadcopters were to me! I bought some, I wrote 3D models and designed my own 3D printable chassis, I even made one from ground up, with FPV camera and all! I built and flew (until destruction) maybe 20 or 25 quads, it was all I did, all day, for 2 months. Now there's a box of spare parts and unfinished related projects that I won't touch before the day I decide to throw it all in the big "electronics junk" bin for use in future projects.
  - franl 7y ago
    What you did sounds amazing! Yet I’m getting a tone from your comment that reveals some kind of disappointment in yourself. Reminds me of this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829. Check out the book mentioned in the top comment (Refuse to Choose), it may resonate with you. It certainly resonated with me after reading it recently.
- dhruvkar 7y ago
  interest <-> spending time on something these feed off of each other. No one is born liking spreadsheets or birthing or insects or woodworking. when you're young, spend time immersed in different things. some will naturally fit better than others, and you'll see possibilities open up. not everyone has that luxury, however.
throwaway88p 7y ago
I don't think I'm stupid, but I do believe that most people have a sort of "ceiling" in regards to their capabilities, intellectual or otherwise. I'm mostly curious about what to do when those something they're interested in's fall outside of your capability.
- swiftcoder 7y ago
  Outside an actual developmental disorder, I wouldn't really agree with this statement. Engineering is certainly easier for some people than for others, but the ones to whom it comes easy don't always make the best engineers. I've known several successful engineers who really struggled in the early stages of their education/career, but stuck it out through some combination of drive and stubbornness.
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    And they're way better at the get-stuff-done style of the world. I'm one of those people who doesn't have trouble understanding things, but a LOT of trouble doing things and I look at the people that have the grit to just push forward and man, I envy their work ethic and focus. It's incredible, truly, how it seems like they can just keep plowing through rough stuff and come out with a solution that works. It may not be the pie-in-the-sky prettiest; but, it works. It works well enough; and, if you're at a small company, it may have literally saved your business.
- bachmeier 7y ago
  You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that". This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities. You don't like the things you're doing. I don't even see any reason to say you don't like programming, just that you don't like what you're doing now.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that". > This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities. He also wrote "I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to understand simple concepts and never retain anything. Occasionally understand the individual concepts of something but then her completely lost when they're all combined in some applied method."
IkmoIkmo 7y ago
I mean, yes, that's possible, it's also possible there are some cognitive limitations that have a substantial impact. I've certainly breezed through a lot of things in school and work that I thought was boring, that others struggled with. I'm far from a genius, perhaps in the smartest 25% quartile, that's all. But we shouldn't discount the fact that there'll be some in the least 25% quartile who have different experiences, regardless of their interest level. Yes, perseverance really matters, and that comes either from interest or grit. But it's not always enough. It can be a lot of fun practising guitar for 8 hours a day if, after a few months, you feel you're making some progress. It's not fun, if even after a few months of long hours of practice, you forgot the concepts from the beginning. Passion only goes so far, we shouldn't romanticise failure too much. Sometimes it just isn't a good fit and sometimes that's because of limitations. That having been said, not trying to dismiss your point, it could very well be that the person is intellectually capable enough, but just doesn't think programming is fun. But I wouldn't take that as a given and in all honestly, it doesn't seem like the most likely case either.

Mirioron 7y ago

Here's the question that inevitably pops up from this: what do you do if nothing interests you in this way? There are interesting things, sure, but those are usually fleeting. You'll be interested in something for a month or two and then lose interest in it. You can't earn a living on that. What do you do then?

notduncansmith 7y ago
That sounds like a job for a mental health specialist. There are psychological reasons underlying the initial interests and the subsequent fading of interest, and the right specialist will be able to identify those and use them to guide you down the path to sticking to something.
- enitihas 7y ago
  I am not really sure a mental health specialist can help you if nothing interests you. It's difficult to imagine every human being having interest in making something. A lot of people may just want to live a chill life. Unfortunately, UBI is very far away, so whether something interests you or not, you got to pick up the least worst choice and get on with it.
- maps7 7y ago
  I'd find it more strange if something did interest people for over 40/50 years. Trains for example - that's a long time to be interested in trains!
- prostheticvamp 7y ago
  Speaking as a mental health specialist: No that is not. We treat disease. Pretending we can fine-tune personality traits is quackery, and no respectable mental health specialist would lay claim to that. But don’t worry - quacks abound, and they even take your insurance.
  - irishcoffee 7y ago
    How does one go about identifying a non-quack in your field? I’m in the market and I’ve been disappointed with the 2 I’ve seen...
    - andrewnc 7y ago
      My wife is a therapist, her suggestion is to go call up the largest local University and talk to folks in their psych department for recommendations. They're usually much more science driven and grounded.
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    I was more thinking that not finding enjoyment in anything would be indicative of depression and that would be something that a mental health specialist can help a person navigate.
  - jawns 7y ago
    I think most people have a capacity for introspection, but some need more direction than others to actually do it and connect the dots. So maybe a core personality trait is largely unchangeable, but being able to recognize its existence and zero in on how it is affecting your life can lead to some real breakthroughs. I don't know if the best person to help someone through this process of introspection is a psychologist or a life coach or a spiritual director or a teacher or a stranger in a coffee shop, but it seems like there's a place for it somewhere.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    To be fair though, a part of ADHD can manifest itself this way. From what I've read it's a pretty common complaint that people with ADHD have trouble doing things they're not interested in. In a lot of those cases you also hear about how their interests change all the time.
trwhite 7y ago
This is a really interesting question and I'd love to know what other people think of it. I think you have to constantly be reading and learning about things on your periphery. It can take a long time before your interest in something is strong enough to decide to do it for a living.
aidenn0 7y ago
A while back, I overheard a coworker of mine was complaining about a cousin that was couch-surfing his way through relatives, not getting a job, just playing video games all day and moving on to a different relative or friend after getting kicked out of the last place he stayed. The coworker and the person he was talking to were both very confused by how anyone could ever want to live that way. I had a very different reaction: if I had been aware that this was an option when I was 22, I totally would have done that, but I just never considered it as a possibility. Even almost 20 years later it still sounds like a great life, other than the soul-crushing guilt and shame I would feel...
- clawedjird 7y ago
  Did he actually enjoy living that way? To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality...
  - craftinator 7y ago
    > To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality... I think that is the point of the parent comment. Some people think it is horrible, like a result of having no options, and some people think it is ideal! Personally, I would go crazy without deadlines hanging over my head and lots of resources to tackle those deadlines with.
- wolco 7y ago
  A lot of people at age 22 live with their parents and play video games or do whatever.
duxup 7y ago
At least as far as jobs go, there are plenty of jobs you can do ok with ... and not actually be interested in it. Programming is just a really hard one to do if you're not interested, possibly only because of the number of people who ARE interested (or at least some point were and they got to the point they could actually just surf along).
probably_wrong 7y ago
According to my father, the business world in my country is currently experiencing difficulties finding talent because, in the words of his bosses, "young people today are too soft and quit when things get slightly difficult". While there are many other factors here that I don't want to get into (such as loyalty being a two-way street and so on), I often wonder whether the idea of "this is not a hobby, it's a job" might have a bit of truth in it. At the end of the day, honest work is better than no work, and we all have to be adults at some point at start pulling our weight. Would I prefer everyone to have UBI and work only if they want to? Definitely. But not everyone can be passionate about what they do (is anyone really passionate about packing items for Amazon?) and I guess sometimes you draw the short stick.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  I grew up doing everything the hard way, self taught holding my own with highly educated peers and spending years on very hard problems to build a future worth having. I am still doing it the hard way but vastly preferring doing it for myself, instead of for ungrateful bosses that pay penny on the dollar for the privilege to ignore their employees and only ever do something to fix unfulfilled promises when people have already been burnt and it’s too late. I’ve heard again and again from peers that bosses only come round to shitty situations when good working employees threaten to leave and by then it’s too late. This time it’s the bosses drawing the short stick and they are complaining like they are entitled to employees. You want people to stay? Make it happen, don’t whine. I have been in management, I know what it takes. Man up.
- growlist 7y ago
  An older colleague of mine a few years back used to come out with some philosophical pearls of wisdom from time to time for us young'uns. I remember him saying once: 'Of course it's not going to be easy all the time - that's why they call it work'.
- kaybe 7y ago
  You know, I'm reminded of the way the CCC conferences are run. Basically, everything (except the toilet cleaners I think) is done by volunteers (aka the people visiting the conferences). I think usually about a third of the attendants do at least a little bit. You just sign up in the system and choose a shift. Some jobs need an introduction and your account is cleared for them once you attended. If you meet a certain amount of shifts worked you get a t-shirt and preference at next-year-ticket purchases. What you usually see is even the people with the menial jobs getting really into them as well. The ushers will experiment with new routing to make it faster, the people running the checkroom will optimize the hell out of it and have a competition with the next shift.. it's good fun. This works because a) they want the whole endeavor to be a success, b) they are allowed to freely fulfill the roles and experiment, c) nobody in particular and everyone in total profits from the work done, d) you can pick up one shift or 20, it's up to you and surely a couple more. I think it is possible to be passionate about packaging items for sure, but not like this. So I wouldn't say it's impossible to run society with UBI, but it will have to look quite different.
dusted 7y ago
This. I recall clearly how amazing mini quadcopters were to me! I bought some, I wrote 3D models and designed my own 3D printable chassis, I even made one from ground up, with FPV camera and all! I built and flew (until destruction) maybe 20 or 25 quads, it was all I did, all day, for 2 months. Now there's a box of spare parts and unfinished related projects that I won't touch before the day I decide to throw it all in the big "electronics junk" bin for use in future projects.
- franl 7y ago
  What you did sounds amazing! Yet I’m getting a tone from your comment that reveals some kind of disappointment in yourself. Reminds me of this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829. Check out the book mentioned in the top comment (Refuse to Choose), it may resonate with you. It certainly resonated with me after reading it recently.
dhruvkar 7y ago
interest <-> spending time on something these feed off of each other. No one is born liking spreadsheets or birthing or insects or woodworking. when you're young, spend time immersed in different things. some will naturally fit better than others, and you'll see possibilities open up. not everyone has that luxury, however.

throwaway88p 7y ago

I don't think I'm stupid, but I do believe that most people have a sort of "ceiling" in regards to their capabilities, intellectual or otherwise. I'm mostly curious about what to do when those something they're interested in's fall outside of your capability.

swiftcoder 7y ago
Outside an actual developmental disorder, I wouldn't really agree with this statement. Engineering is certainly easier for some people than for others, but the ones to whom it comes easy don't always make the best engineers. I've known several successful engineers who really struggled in the early stages of their education/career, but stuck it out through some combination of drive and stubbornness.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  And they're way better at the get-stuff-done style of the world. I'm one of those people who doesn't have trouble understanding things, but a LOT of trouble doing things and I look at the people that have the grit to just push forward and man, I envy their work ethic and focus. It's incredible, truly, how it seems like they can just keep plowing through rough stuff and come out with a solution that works. It may not be the pie-in-the-sky prettiest; but, it works. It works well enough; and, if you're at a small company, it may have literally saved your business.
bachmeier 7y ago
You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that". This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities. You don't like the things you're doing. I don't even see any reason to say you don't like programming, just that you don't like what you're doing now.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that". > This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities. He also wrote "I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to understand simple concepts and never retain anything. Occasionally understand the individual concepts of something but then her completely lost when they're all combined in some applied method."

IkmoIkmo 7y ago

I mean, yes, that's possible, it's also possible there are some cognitive limitations that have a substantial impact. I've certainly breezed through a lot of things in school and work that I thought was boring, that others struggled with. I'm far from a genius, perhaps in the smartest 25% quartile, that's all. But we shouldn't discount the fact that there'll be some in the least 25% quartile who have different experiences, regardless of their interest level. Yes, perseverance really matters, and that comes either from interest or grit. But it's not always enough. It can be a lot of fun practising guitar for 8 hours a day if, after a few months, you feel you're making some progress. It's not fun, if even after a few months of long hours of practice, you forgot the concepts from the beginning. Passion only goes so far, we shouldn't romanticise failure too much. Sometimes it just isn't a good fit and sometimes that's because of limitations. That having been said, not trying to dismiss your point, it could very well be that the person is intellectually capable enough, but just doesn't think programming is fun. But I wouldn't take that as a given and in all honestly, it doesn't seem like the most likely case either.