5 ms·

The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely Yo

The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). This suggests that the attitude discussed was how Feynman thought about woman. However, the chapter is about trying out that attitude as a temporary experiment — and Feynman quickly rejects the approach precisely because is feels too sexist/dehumanizing (iirc, it's been a while since I read the source). None of that is to disagree with the article's overall point – I don't have an informed opinion on the matter. But I did find that quote a bit misleading.

kick 6y ago
Feynman definitely had some undesirable features, and he probably should if nothing else be re-examined as the poster boy for American science, but yeah, most articles criticizing him seem to be from people who haven't read anything he wrote. There was an interesting article in The Baffler a little while ago on his polarizing history and personal views. I don't really agree with the conclusions it came to (it was very much of the position that he was undeniably irredeemably awful), but it was really the first long-form critique of him that seemed like it actually was familiar with the target, and has really been something I've thought about every time I've seen Feynman mentioned since, in any context.
- cycomanic 6y ago
  I don't know if you meant to suggest this article falls under "most articles criticizing him seem to be from people who haven't read anything he wrote.", it certainly gives the impression. It should be noted that the author literally wrote a book about Feynman, so definitely would have read a ton of his work.
  - kick 6y ago
    I actually read (and liked) Halpern's book! In this case, I was responding more to the line quoted, mainly with the 'notorious' part in mind.
forgot_my_pwd 6y ago
>“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing” Who hasn't said something of this sort or spirit at one time or another. Both men and women. Even if it wasn't part of some thought experiment, it's an irrelevant anecdote...
- kaesar14 6y ago
  "I adopted the attitude that those bar boys are all assholes, that they aren't worth anything, and all they're in there for is to get in your pants, and they're not going to give you a goddamn thing" it's universal i think
  - m463 6y ago
    Most people come around and realize that going to bars, where the common theme is selling you alcohol, might have results slightly different than polite society.
archsurface 6y ago
"bar girls" != "woman" (sic).
djaque 6y ago
Taking a look back at the book, I think you're right. They are misrepresenting him in this one quote. He was referring to the gross mindset he was trying out. On the other hand, I'm in one of the departments Feynman had an appointment with for a few years. Some of the older faculty overlapped with him and have fun stories to share. However, one of the lasting memories of his stay was how he was predatory towards the undergraduate women. In fact, it was to the point that some people speculate that he was forced to the leave the department after sleeping with too many of his students. I still look up to Feynman for his science, but there were some real problems with how he treated women. Even if the article didn't do a great job of presenting the evidence for it. Besides Surely you're Joking is Feynman as portrayed by Feynman. He's famously a showman and isn't going to create an image of himself in the book that he doesn't think is likeable. Interestingly, from what I remember reading, he also did a lot to support the female scientists in his life including his sister.
- ramraj07 6y ago
  Is there any evidence or reporting to this end? This seems quite the fact (other than him choking his wife) and would love to learn more about.
  - djaque 6y ago
    My knowledge of it is just through department oral history. I did some googling though and apparently his time at Cornell is talked about in Lawrence Krauss's biography "Quantum Man". Here's a brief review of it [1]. Apparently as a professor he would pretend to be an undergrad to sleep with students. He also apparently slept with the wives of multiple faculty (I might have remembered it wrong and this was the reason he was rumored to have been forced to leave over). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/may/15/quantum-man-richard-feynman-review https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/may/15/quantum-man-...

kick 6y ago

Feynman definitely had some undesirable features, and he probably should if nothing else be re-examined as the poster boy for American science, but yeah, most articles criticizing him seem to be from people who haven't read anything he wrote. There was an interesting article in The Baffler a little while ago on his polarizing history and personal views. I don't really agree with the conclusions it came to (it was very much of the position that he was undeniably irredeemably awful), but it was really the first long-form critique of him that seemed like it actually was familiar with the target, and has really been something I've thought about every time I've seen Feynman mentioned since, in any context.

cycomanic 6y ago
I don't know if you meant to suggest this article falls under "most articles criticizing him seem to be from people who haven't read anything he wrote.", it certainly gives the impression. It should be noted that the author literally wrote a book about Feynman, so definitely would have read a ton of his work.
- kick 6y ago
  I actually read (and liked) Halpern's book! In this case, I was responding more to the line quoted, mainly with the 'notorious' part in mind.

forgot_my_pwd 6y ago

>“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing” Who hasn't said something of this sort or spirit at one time or another. Both men and women. Even if it wasn't part of some thought experiment, it's an irrelevant anecdote...

kaesar14 6y ago
"I adopted the attitude that those bar boys are all assholes, that they aren't worth anything, and all they're in there for is to get in your pants, and they're not going to give you a goddamn thing" it's universal i think
- m463 6y ago
  Most people come around and realize that going to bars, where the common theme is selling you alcohol, might have results slightly different than polite society.

archsurface 6y ago

"bar girls" != "woman" (sic).

djaque 6y ago

Taking a look back at the book, I think you're right. They are misrepresenting him in this one quote. He was referring to the gross mindset he was trying out. On the other hand, I'm in one of the departments Feynman had an appointment with for a few years. Some of the older faculty overlapped with him and have fun stories to share. However, one of the lasting memories of his stay was how he was predatory towards the undergraduate women. In fact, it was to the point that some people speculate that he was forced to the leave the department after sleeping with too many of his students. I still look up to Feynman for his science, but there were some real problems with how he treated women. Even if the article didn't do a great job of presenting the evidence for it. Besides Surely you're Joking is Feynman as portrayed by Feynman. He's famously a showman and isn't going to create an image of himself in the book that he doesn't think is likeable. Interestingly, from what I remember reading, he also did a lot to support the female scientists in his life including his sister.

ramraj07 6y ago
Is there any evidence or reporting to this end? This seems quite the fact (other than him choking his wife) and would love to learn more about.
- djaque 6y ago
  My knowledge of it is just through department oral history. I did some googling though and apparently his time at Cornell is talked about in Lawrence Krauss's biography "Quantum Man". Here's a brief review of it [1]. Apparently as a professor he would pretend to be an undergrad to sleep with students. He also apparently slept with the wives of multiple faculty (I might have remembered it wrong and this was the reason he was rumored to have been forced to leave over). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/may/15/quantum-man-richard-feynman-review https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/may/15/quantum-man-...