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I wish they would simply remove every second seat and charge twice the price. That would mean the same revenue for the airline and a much more comfortable fligh

by TekMol 7y ago

I wish they would simply remove every second seat and charge twice the price. That would mean the same revenue for the airline and a much more comfortable flight for me. Win win. And they would probably still have some wiggle room. Because 50% less customers would mean at least some reduction in costs. What about the HN gang? Would you keep flying if prices doubled?

cscurmudgeon 7y ago
> I wish they would simply remove every second seat and charge twice the price Will that help with the virus? It is less than six feet and you will be with that person for hours or so.
- TekMol 7y ago
  Imagine 9 passengers sitting like this: *** *** *** Now lets remove 4 of them: * * * * * I would say every one has at least a 50% reduction in the number of people close to them. On top of that, minimum distance and average distance both went up. I wouldn't be surprised if the infection rate in the second example is only 10% of the first. Pair that with everyone wearing a mask. I have read that the infection rate goes down by 95% between two people wearing a mask in comparison to two peole wearing no mask. Pair that with a 10-minute test [1] which everyone has to take at the airport and let only negatively tested passangers on board. I think instead of trying to wait it out and print money, we should start to engineer ourselfes out of this crisis. [1] https://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-third-solution.html https://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-third-solution.h...
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    > Pair that with a 10-minute test [1] which everyone has to take at the airport and let only negatively tested passangers on board. Isn't that the only thing you'd need? Then the seating arrangement wouldn't be relevant. Seems unnecessary to require both.
    - TekMol 7y ago
      Depends on how quickly after an infection the test detects it. And on how reliable the test is.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Isn't the distance completely irrelevant in an airplane anyway, seeing as everyone is in a closed, pressurised environment with recirculated air?
  - TekMol 7y ago
    That would hold true if the virus would behave like a gas that dissolves in air. But it is carried by droplets that fall to the ground. I would think there is not more wind in an airplane then in a supermarket. So the droplets that carry the virus should fall down to the ground in a similar fashion.
  - xaqfox 7y ago
    It is not really recirculated air. Most use compressor fan bypass air with one-way check valves throughout the cabin.
vkou 7y ago
If I wanted to pay ~double for a more comfortable flight, I'd be flying first class everywhere.
- TekMol 7y ago
  Not sure where you are flying. In Europe, there usually is no such option. Most of the time, all you can do is pay an additional €30 or so and get a seat with more legroom. And that's it.
  - atomwaffel 7y ago
    That’s true if you’re flying on budget airlines like Ryanair or Easyjet, but nearly all the legacy carriers offer a business class “cabin” where the seats are usually the same as in economy but middle seats are kept free. That’s a 33% reduction in density, not 50%, but it’s not far off.
    - TekMol 7y ago
      Those business class seats on "legacy carriers" are not available for double the price. Try some flight searches and compare direct one way flights between two cities in Europe. First of all, you will have a hard time finding a direct flight by Lufthansa for example. Secondly, a Lufthansa business flight will usually be over 5x the price of a Ryan air flight.
      - atomwaffel 7y ago
        Oh yeah, I doubt you’ll find business class tickets that are anywhere near as cheap as twice the price of the average Ryanair flight, but as someone who is in the lucky situation to be able to avoid airlines that I find actively unpleasant, the price hop from economy to business needn’t be that large. It depends on the airline, route and dates of course, but I’ve seen (and bought) short-haul business class tickets that were less than 150% the price of economy.
  - gambiting 7y ago
arcticbull 7y ago
American tried this a few years ago with "more legroom throughout coach" back in 2005-ish and it nearly bankrupted them. People flatly and absolutely refuse to pay more than the bare minimum to fly places. This will not change once the pandemic panic dies down. I'd pay a bit more for transcontinental flying but, like, I'm very much in the minority and I fly enough to get free upgrades most of the time anyways.
- TekMol 7y ago
  This will not change once the pandemic panic dies down Once the pandemic dies down, they can put the seats back in.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    I think it's self-selecting: the ones who fear flying won't fly no matter how many seats are aboard, and the ones who don't, don't care so much about the social distancing. Consider United's new aspirational social distancing program [1] where they don't do anything but block seat selection until check-in, so you can see who's next to you when you do, I think. It's such a non-policy it's kind of unclear. [1] https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-social-distancing/ https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-social-distancing...
- peteretep 7y ago
  > People flatly and absolutely refuse to pay more than the bare minimum to fly places This is too facile a take, given the existence of Business and Premium Economy. I think the Asian low-cost carriers probably have it right with very very cheap basic seats, and then the ability to eke out the consumer surplus with reasonably priced “upgrades”. Air Asia’s “hot seats” have a tiny bit more leg room and are charged accordingly. I paid VietJet $6 for premium check-in, and it felt like the future. Anyway, I suspect the very blunt approach of flight aggregators showing you cheapest first without clearly surfacing comfort factors cause what you describe, rather than an inherent unwillingness to pay among consumers.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
talliedthoughts 7y ago
Any increase in price leads to some people deciding to skip the flight entirely. You might only need to raise prices by 30% percent or so to have a half-empty plane, if your customers are highly price-sensitive. I would probably take fewer short holiday trips during the year - switch to 1-2 long holidays instead of 6-7 weekend trips. That way the cost of flying takes up a lower percentage of the overall holiday budget. If people get used to higher prices, I also expect airlines to try and maintain them even after the seating restrictions are lifted, same as adding carry-on bag fees but not lowering the base price to compensate.
revicon 7y ago
You can already purchase two seats today to achieve this result if you wanted to.
- TekMol 7y ago
  I have never seen such an option. Also, it would not give you the additional leg room that we would get if every second seat was removed: *** * * *** --> * *** * * And it would not save as much weight as removing the seats.

by TekMol 7y ago

cscurmudgeon 7y ago

> I wish they would simply remove every second seat and charge twice the price Will that help with the virus? It is less than six feet and you will be with that person for hours or so.

TekMol 7y ago
Imagine 9 passengers sitting like this: *** *** *** Now lets remove 4 of them: * * * * * I would say every one has at least a 50% reduction in the number of people close to them. On top of that, minimum distance and average distance both went up. I wouldn't be surprised if the infection rate in the second example is only 10% of the first. Pair that with everyone wearing a mask. I have read that the infection rate goes down by 95% between two people wearing a mask in comparison to two peole wearing no mask. Pair that with a 10-minute test [1] which everyone has to take at the airport and let only negatively tested passangers on board. I think instead of trying to wait it out and print money, we should start to engineer ourselfes out of this crisis. [1] https://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-third-solution.html https://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-third-solution.h...
- arcticbull 7y ago
  > Pair that with a 10-minute test [1] which everyone has to take at the airport and let only negatively tested passangers on board. Isn't that the only thing you'd need? Then the seating arrangement wouldn't be relevant. Seems unnecessary to require both.
  - TekMol 7y ago
    Depends on how quickly after an infection the test detects it. And on how reliable the test is.
gambiting 7y ago
Isn't the distance completely irrelevant in an airplane anyway, seeing as everyone is in a closed, pressurised environment with recirculated air?
- TekMol 7y ago
  That would hold true if the virus would behave like a gas that dissolves in air. But it is carried by droplets that fall to the ground. I would think there is not more wind in an airplane then in a supermarket. So the droplets that carry the virus should fall down to the ground in a similar fashion.
- xaqfox 7y ago
  It is not really recirculated air. Most use compressor fan bypass air with one-way check valves throughout the cabin.

vkou 7y ago

If I wanted to pay ~double for a more comfortable flight, I'd be flying first class everywhere.

TekMol 7y ago
Not sure where you are flying. In Europe, there usually is no such option. Most of the time, all you can do is pay an additional €30 or so and get a seat with more legroom. And that's it.
- atomwaffel 7y ago
  That’s true if you’re flying on budget airlines like Ryanair or Easyjet, but nearly all the legacy carriers offer a business class “cabin” where the seats are usually the same as in economy but middle seats are kept free. That’s a 33% reduction in density, not 50%, but it’s not far off.
  - TekMol 7y ago
    Those business class seats on "legacy carriers" are not available for double the price. Try some flight searches and compare direct one way flights between two cities in Europe. First of all, you will have a hard time finding a direct flight by Lufthansa for example. Secondly, a Lufthansa business flight will usually be over 5x the price of a Ryan air flight.
    - atomwaffel 7y ago
      Oh yeah, I doubt you’ll find business class tickets that are anywhere near as cheap as twice the price of the average Ryanair flight, but as someone who is in the lucky situation to be able to avoid airlines that I find actively unpleasant, the price hop from economy to business needn’t be that large. It depends on the airline, route and dates of course, but I’ve seen (and bought) short-haul business class tickets that were less than 150% the price of economy.
- gambiting 7y ago

arcticbull 7y ago

American tried this a few years ago with "more legroom throughout coach" back in 2005-ish and it nearly bankrupted them. People flatly and absolutely refuse to pay more than the bare minimum to fly places. This will not change once the pandemic panic dies down. I'd pay a bit more for transcontinental flying but, like, I'm very much in the minority and I fly enough to get free upgrades most of the time anyways.

TekMol 7y ago
This will not change once the pandemic panic dies down Once the pandemic dies down, they can put the seats back in.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  I think it's self-selecting: the ones who fear flying won't fly no matter how many seats are aboard, and the ones who don't, don't care so much about the social distancing. Consider United's new aspirational social distancing program [1] where they don't do anything but block seat selection until check-in, so you can see who's next to you when you do, I think. It's such a non-policy it's kind of unclear. [1] https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-social-distancing/ https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-social-distancing...
peteretep 7y ago
> People flatly and absolutely refuse to pay more than the bare minimum to fly places This is too facile a take, given the existence of Business and Premium Economy. I think the Asian low-cost carriers probably have it right with very very cheap basic seats, and then the ability to eke out the consumer surplus with reasonably priced “upgrades”. Air Asia’s “hot seats” have a tiny bit more leg room and are charged accordingly. I paid VietJet $6 for premium check-in, and it felt like the future. Anyway, I suspect the very blunt approach of flight aggregators showing you cheapest first without clearly surfacing comfort factors cause what you describe, rather than an inherent unwillingness to pay among consumers.
- arcticbull 7y ago

talliedthoughts 7y ago

Any increase in price leads to some people deciding to skip the flight entirely. You might only need to raise prices by 30% percent or so to have a half-empty plane, if your customers are highly price-sensitive. I would probably take fewer short holiday trips during the year - switch to 1-2 long holidays instead of 6-7 weekend trips. That way the cost of flying takes up a lower percentage of the overall holiday budget. If people get used to higher prices, I also expect airlines to try and maintain them even after the seating restrictions are lifted, same as adding carry-on bag fees but not lowering the base price to compensate.

revicon 7y ago

You can already purchase two seats today to achieve this result if you wanted to.

TekMol 7y ago
I have never seen such an option. Also, it would not give you the additional leg room that we would get if every second seat was removed: *** * * *** --> * *** * * And it would not save as much weight as removing the seats.