5 ms·

Every indication is this was an honest mistake that was discovered due to the grant. The costs associated with the experiment where still there. Taking back gra

Every indication is this was an honest mistake that was discovered due to the grant. The costs associated with the experiment where still there. Taking back grants in this situation would disincentivize scientific honesty.

danieltillett 6y ago
I wasn’t suggesting the grant be taken back, but that she voluntarily hand it back.
- Ididntdothis 6y ago
  Unless she is independently wealthy there would be a strong incentive for her to not admit the error if there was an expectation to hand the money back. Where is it supposed to come from?
  - danieltillett 6y ago
    I am not suggesting she hand back the money already spent, just that she might think about handing what is left. I would hand back a grant that was given due to a false result that occurred because of my error. Julia should be praised for doing the right thing with the paper, I just think she should think about going further.
    - Ididntdothis 6y ago
      I don't think so. I am not returning my salary when I screw up at work and I have made bad decisions that cost 100s of thousands. As long it comes from an honest effort mistakes are part of the game.
      - unishark 6y ago
        I think you missed the above poster's point. Big grants provide funding for multiple years. It can get cancelled rather than continued. I'm rather surprised it wasn't. They might also cease making payments that haven't been made yet in the current year. I know people this has happened to, purely due to govt shutdowns and such unrelated to anyone screwing up. It would be more like losing the remaining payments of a multi-year contract because it gets broken. Or in your analogy, like losing your job.
  - unishark 6y ago
    There's no way to avoid such incentives here. Being allowed to keep the grant creates an incentive to publish incorrect results in the first place. "Gosh this seems too good to be true, but let's wait till the system has invested another million dollars in my career before investigating the process too closely".
    - danieltillett 6y ago
      This is exactly what the current funding system encourages. If you want to be funded you are almost forced to pump out the papers as fast as you can with the bare minimum of checking.
- nuclearnice1 6y ago
  Some days at work, if I wrote buggy code, I go to my boss and return my paycheck. No! Wait, that never happens. Sometimes there are going to be mistakes.
  - danieltillett 6y ago
    It is not quite the same thing. If your boss had sold your code to a customer who paid based on the buggy result then would the customer be unreasonable seeking a refund? Would your boss be ethical offering the customer a refund?
    - nuclearnice1 6y ago
      Most software has some bugs. No one asks for a refund. They apply the same reasonable expectation that the people who funded the study did. Whoops mistakes happen.
      - searchableguy 6y ago
        No way in related to the mistake in the article. Mistakes can and do happen. But if you sold me software to solve a problem and I paid you for it. You wouldn't refund me if the software didn't solve my original problem? I feel like that's scam but I could be wrong. I didn't get what I was promised and hence I am entitled to a refund. If you got a laptop with broken keyboard or the privacy friendly app that you paid extra for turned out to be facebook, would you not want your money back? You can't just use mistake as an excuse if you promise "specific" things like written in your implicit/explicit contract.
        not2b 6y ago
        You sound like someone who never bought software before. You don't get your money back. You might get a bug fix, but the contract probably says it is sold as is.
        danieltillett 6y ago

danieltillett 6y ago

I wasn’t suggesting the grant be taken back, but that she voluntarily hand it back.

Ididntdothis 6y ago
Unless she is independently wealthy there would be a strong incentive for her to not admit the error if there was an expectation to hand the money back. Where is it supposed to come from?
- danieltillett 6y ago
  I am not suggesting she hand back the money already spent, just that she might think about handing what is left. I would hand back a grant that was given due to a false result that occurred because of my error. Julia should be praised for doing the right thing with the paper, I just think she should think about going further.
  - Ididntdothis 6y ago
    I don't think so. I am not returning my salary when I screw up at work and I have made bad decisions that cost 100s of thousands. As long it comes from an honest effort mistakes are part of the game.
    - unishark 6y ago
      I think you missed the above poster's point. Big grants provide funding for multiple years. It can get cancelled rather than continued. I'm rather surprised it wasn't. They might also cease making payments that haven't been made yet in the current year. I know people this has happened to, purely due to govt shutdowns and such unrelated to anyone screwing up. It would be more like losing the remaining payments of a multi-year contract because it gets broken. Or in your analogy, like losing your job.
- unishark 6y ago
  There's no way to avoid such incentives here. Being allowed to keep the grant creates an incentive to publish incorrect results in the first place. "Gosh this seems too good to be true, but let's wait till the system has invested another million dollars in my career before investigating the process too closely".
  - danieltillett 6y ago
    This is exactly what the current funding system encourages. If you want to be funded you are almost forced to pump out the papers as fast as you can with the bare minimum of checking.
nuclearnice1 6y ago
Some days at work, if I wrote buggy code, I go to my boss and return my paycheck. No! Wait, that never happens. Sometimes there are going to be mistakes.
- danieltillett 6y ago
  It is not quite the same thing. If your boss had sold your code to a customer who paid based on the buggy result then would the customer be unreasonable seeking a refund? Would your boss be ethical offering the customer a refund?
  - nuclearnice1 6y ago
    Most software has some bugs. No one asks for a refund. They apply the same reasonable expectation that the people who funded the study did. Whoops mistakes happen.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      No way in related to the mistake in the article. Mistakes can and do happen. But if you sold me software to solve a problem and I paid you for it. You wouldn't refund me if the software didn't solve my original problem? I feel like that's scam but I could be wrong. I didn't get what I was promised and hence I am entitled to a refund. If you got a laptop with broken keyboard or the privacy friendly app that you paid extra for turned out to be facebook, would you not want your money back? You can't just use mistake as an excuse if you promise "specific" things like written in your implicit/explicit contract.
      - not2b 6y ago
        You sound like someone who never bought software before. You don't get your money back. You might get a bug fix, but the contract probably says it is sold as is.
        danieltillett 6y ago