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I think it comes down to students having a different expectation of what CS is all about. Students think that if they like to use and troubleshoot computers the

I think it comes down to students having a different expectation of what CS is all about. Students think that if they like to use and troubleshoot computers then they will like CS. Well, surprise, CS has a lot of math and a lot of theoretical work which is a drag if you are not ready for it. Even if you are ready it's still a drag. Math is a large component of the degree. I remember that most CS students in my school would minor in math since it only took 1 or 2 more classes to complete the minor. Any way you look at it, it's a lot of math. Many people aren't ready for it. I think economics is one of those majors that has a large dropout rate too. Again, the amount of math is a huge reason why people drop out.

fossuser 7y ago
I’d be surprised that it would be because of the math - I’d think some math would be expected, I’d guess it’s because you have to think for yourself and problem solve basically immediately. Pretty much every other class just has you follow rote steps until you get to upper classman years or even graduate school. Some form of recognize the problem type and then implement the procedure of explicitly taught steps for that problem. In computer science introductory classes you get introduced to programming languages as tools, but you have to figure out the procedures largely on your own. I think this is the first time a lot of students have had to actually think for themselves when solving a problem, and I suspect the transition is too much for a lot of them and they drop out.
- WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
  That's a good point. If you can't figure out how to solve a problem, then it's very hard to move forward in CS so dropping out is the only option.
- OGWhales 7y ago
  All of my friends who dropped out did so because of the math. The actual computer science courses were enjoyable. Discrete math was particularly challenging on purpose and so was our specific calculus classes we had to take. This was just to weed people out I heard. I would have guessed your reason too as that’s why people didn’t like AP computer science when I took that, but in my experience it seemed like math is what gets people and honestly that’s what I struggled the most with too. It was just an absurd amount of work on top of my other classes and it wasn’t enjoyable work either.
  - fossuser 7y ago
    That’s interesting - I would expect CS drop out rates to not be significantly different than engineering/STEM in general if that’s the case since any of those are likely to have similar levels of math. If CS rates are higher then I’d expect something unique to CS, if they’re not then CS isn’t really unique among more difficult degrees anyway. If the person is comparing engineering degrees/dropout percentage to liberal arts degrees, well - there’s a reason the liberal arts stereotype exists. Those classes are way easier.
    - dodobirdlord 7y ago
      > That’s interesting - I would expect CS drop out rates to not be significantly different than engineering/STEM in general if that’s the case since any of those are likely to have similar levels of math. The level of math in most engineering fields stays within the bounds of applying techniques from calculus, and rarely involves proving much if anything. Most engineering degrees don't require any math courses beyond calculus and statistics. CS is one of a small number of degree programs where undergrads are likely to be exposed to a significant amount of proof theory, along with topics like algebra and graphs.
rel2thr 7y ago
The theory and math may account for some of it but The dropout rate is high on the Intro classes though, which are usually just ‘java 101’ I think a lot of people start CS without having coded before, find it more difficult than expected, look around and see half the class have been coding a few years and are way ahead and decide it’s not for them
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Yeah, some people just don't have the head even for regular programming. One of the people I started CS with really just wanted to make games. He was creative, and wasn't a dummy, but he hated programming once he tried it. He could squeak through on the assignments but it was just miserable for him. He switched majors long before we got to the really abstract stuff.
_bxg1 7y ago
I think high school courses are a great way to solve this problem. I took two years of computer science before setting foot on a college campus, so I knew for sure what I wanted to be doing. For the record, I was never super interested in the really abstract theory and math, and I was just okay at it, but I could do it well enough and was motivated to push through by my love of SWE. I don't think I'm alone in that.

fossuser 7y ago

I’d be surprised that it would be because of the math - I’d think some math would be expected, I’d guess it’s because you have to think for yourself and problem solve basically immediately. Pretty much every other class just has you follow rote steps until you get to upper classman years or even graduate school. Some form of recognize the problem type and then implement the procedure of explicitly taught steps for that problem. In computer science introductory classes you get introduced to programming languages as tools, but you have to figure out the procedures largely on your own. I think this is the first time a lot of students have had to actually think for themselves when solving a problem, and I suspect the transition is too much for a lot of them and they drop out.

WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
That's a good point. If you can't figure out how to solve a problem, then it's very hard to move forward in CS so dropping out is the only option.
OGWhales 7y ago
All of my friends who dropped out did so because of the math. The actual computer science courses were enjoyable. Discrete math was particularly challenging on purpose and so was our specific calculus classes we had to take. This was just to weed people out I heard. I would have guessed your reason too as that’s why people didn’t like AP computer science when I took that, but in my experience it seemed like math is what gets people and honestly that’s what I struggled the most with too. It was just an absurd amount of work on top of my other classes and it wasn’t enjoyable work either.
- fossuser 7y ago
  That’s interesting - I would expect CS drop out rates to not be significantly different than engineering/STEM in general if that’s the case since any of those are likely to have similar levels of math. If CS rates are higher then I’d expect something unique to CS, if they’re not then CS isn’t really unique among more difficult degrees anyway. If the person is comparing engineering degrees/dropout percentage to liberal arts degrees, well - there’s a reason the liberal arts stereotype exists. Those classes are way easier.
  - dodobirdlord 7y ago
    > That’s interesting - I would expect CS drop out rates to not be significantly different than engineering/STEM in general if that’s the case since any of those are likely to have similar levels of math. The level of math in most engineering fields stays within the bounds of applying techniques from calculus, and rarely involves proving much if anything. Most engineering degrees don't require any math courses beyond calculus and statistics. CS is one of a small number of degree programs where undergrads are likely to be exposed to a significant amount of proof theory, along with topics like algebra and graphs.

rel2thr 7y ago

The theory and math may account for some of it but The dropout rate is high on the Intro classes though, which are usually just ‘java 101’ I think a lot of people start CS without having coded before, find it more difficult than expected, look around and see half the class have been coding a few years and are way ahead and decide it’s not for them

_bxg1 7y ago
Yeah, some people just don't have the head even for regular programming. One of the people I started CS with really just wanted to make games. He was creative, and wasn't a dummy, but he hated programming once he tried it. He could squeak through on the assignments but it was just miserable for him. He switched majors long before we got to the really abstract stuff.

_bxg1 7y ago

I think high school courses are a great way to solve this problem. I took two years of computer science before setting foot on a college campus, so I knew for sure what I wanted to be doing. For the record, I was never super interested in the really abstract theory and math, and I was just okay at it, but I could do it well enough and was motivated to push through by my love of SWE. I don't think I'm alone in that.