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I mean, you seem to be taking the position that all should have prepared for the extremely unlikely scenario that the entire economy of a region would shut down

I mean, you seem to be taking the position that all should have prepared for the extremely unlikely scenario that the entire economy of a region would shut down for weeks if not months at a time, and if businesses failed to prepare for that then they deserve to close. And that's fine and all, but that's 100% contrary to the standard way small businesses in the US have operated. Any business hoarding cash for such an unlikely scenario would be relieved of that hoard of cash through one absolutely legal method or another, it's the American way. |reply tagged to my own post by mistake.

dangus 6y ago
No, I’m not taking the position that any business deserves to close due to an extreme scenario. My position is that it’s absolutely normal for the business owner to shoulder that risk - 1/5 of small businesses fail in the first five years, right? So the whole idea of donating money to save a business is a illogical when they are expected to fail. I’m very simply taking the position that donating to for-profit businesses is almost never a noble cause, even if it is a “mom and pop,” and that I’m confused why people are doing this when they should be more worried about their own finances, worried about their own job security, etc. With all respect to you, I think your responses are just taking us down a lot of tangents to my original point (I’ve admittedly followed you down that rabbit hole). I can’t find in your responses where you directly address why someone should donate to a for-profit business, especially when these donation funds are often managed by the owner. The root question is this: why should an individual donate to any particular small business at this time? How would donations have any chance of rescuing a business compared to a fully operational business? Why would anyone donate to the business ownership class over something like a local food bank or even just directly giving money to their unemployed friends and family? And despite your explanations of how the restaurant industry works, I still don’t think the story adds up. I don’t think the city is knocking down doors for tax money. Businesses don’t pay taxes on losses. I don’t think commercial landlords expect to get paid right now and I don’t think they’re evicting just yet when there’s no business to replace the evicted. They have incentive to negotiate. I don’t think restaurants have to pay suppliers for supplies they aren’t getting. And they certainly don’t have any obligation to pay their 100% hourly tip-supported staff.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  False dichotomy: you can do both of course. And in my state, a food producing state, the food banks sell off their excess inventory to anybody willing to pay dime on the dollar (Scout events, festivals etc) because cash is more useful to them. Never mind noble; it can be selfish to wish a favorite restaurant stays in business. Discretionary income is exactly that, to be spent at your own discretion. We could all quit restaurants entirely and spend every waking moment collecting and donating to food banks etc. But we don't. It's not essentially different from the previous comment (false dichotomy) to say that. And of course we don't do either one.
  - dangus 6y ago
    The food bank thing is just an example. It’s an example of something worth donating to: a non-profit charity organization that can redirect funds to help people in some way. So yes, you can do both things. You can donate to whatever you want. My whole argument here is that donating to a for-profit business is never noble and never logical. If you give money to a for-profit entity you should either receive a product, service, or ownership stake in return. Again, my whole argument is that this crisis has made many people in an act of group-think start considering donating to for profit entities, especially ones that frequently churn in the first place, to be a desirable action. It’s not, full stop. Nobody should do it. Another example: my gym has an option to continue paying dues to support their “employee relief fund.” But the owners of the gym administer this fund. How do I know it won’t be used for profit? It’s not a 503(c) organization. The owners could just keep 90% of it and give 10% to the employees and that would be perfectly legal. So it’s the same thing with all of these hastily-arranged informal restaurant/bar donation funds. There’s no oversight, there’s often not even an official organization that’s behind them.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      I patronize three small mon-and-pop restaurants. I'm supporting my neighbors. Where does that fit in this utilitarian view?

dangus 6y ago

No, I’m not taking the position that any business deserves to close due to an extreme scenario. My position is that it’s absolutely normal for the business owner to shoulder that risk - 1/5 of small businesses fail in the first five years, right? So the whole idea of donating money to save a business is a illogical when they are expected to fail. I’m very simply taking the position that donating to for-profit businesses is almost never a noble cause, even if it is a “mom and pop,” and that I’m confused why people are doing this when they should be more worried about their own finances, worried about their own job security, etc. With all respect to you, I think your responses are just taking us down a lot of tangents to my original point (I’ve admittedly followed you down that rabbit hole). I can’t find in your responses where you directly address why someone should donate to a for-profit business, especially when these donation funds are often managed by the owner. The root question is this: why should an individual donate to any particular small business at this time? How would donations have any chance of rescuing a business compared to a fully operational business? Why would anyone donate to the business ownership class over something like a local food bank or even just directly giving money to their unemployed friends and family? And despite your explanations of how the restaurant industry works, I still don’t think the story adds up. I don’t think the city is knocking down doors for tax money. Businesses don’t pay taxes on losses. I don’t think commercial landlords expect to get paid right now and I don’t think they’re evicting just yet when there’s no business to replace the evicted. They have incentive to negotiate. I don’t think restaurants have to pay suppliers for supplies they aren’t getting. And they certainly don’t have any obligation to pay their 100% hourly tip-supported staff.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
False dichotomy: you can do both of course. And in my state, a food producing state, the food banks sell off their excess inventory to anybody willing to pay dime on the dollar (Scout events, festivals etc) because cash is more useful to them. Never mind noble; it can be selfish to wish a favorite restaurant stays in business. Discretionary income is exactly that, to be spent at your own discretion. We could all quit restaurants entirely and spend every waking moment collecting and donating to food banks etc. But we don't. It's not essentially different from the previous comment (false dichotomy) to say that. And of course we don't do either one.
- dangus 6y ago
  The food bank thing is just an example. It’s an example of something worth donating to: a non-profit charity organization that can redirect funds to help people in some way. So yes, you can do both things. You can donate to whatever you want. My whole argument here is that donating to a for-profit business is never noble and never logical. If you give money to a for-profit entity you should either receive a product, service, or ownership stake in return. Again, my whole argument is that this crisis has made many people in an act of group-think start considering donating to for profit entities, especially ones that frequently churn in the first place, to be a desirable action. It’s not, full stop. Nobody should do it. Another example: my gym has an option to continue paying dues to support their “employee relief fund.” But the owners of the gym administer this fund. How do I know it won’t be used for profit? It’s not a 503(c) organization. The owners could just keep 90% of it and give 10% to the employees and that would be perfectly legal. So it’s the same thing with all of these hastily-arranged informal restaurant/bar donation funds. There’s no oversight, there’s often not even an official organization that’s behind them.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    I patronize three small mon-and-pop restaurants. I'm supporting my neighbors. Where does that fit in this utilitarian view?