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"these programs were prototypes for still-ongoing attacks on the American public." Needs evidence.

by jariel 7y ago

rmrfstar 7y ago
One of many examples [1]. These tactics would be familiar to the Romans. They are as old as the hills. They are apparently common enough that HBGary proposed a collaboration with Palantir to use them against Glenn Greenwald [2]. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110209/22340513034/leaked-hbgary-documents-show-plan-to-spread-wikileaks-propaganda-bofa-attack-glenn-greenwald.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110209/22340513034/leake...
- jariel 7y ago
  These have absolutely nothing to do with said 'mind control' programs.
- nl 7y ago
  These aren't mind control at all! Saying "the intelligence community is horrible" isn't the same as "these programs were prototypes for still-ongoing [mind control] attacks on the American public."
  - rmrfstar 7y ago
    We don't really know what took place in the "mind control" program, as the records were systematically destroyed [1]. One plausible interpretation is that these were mainly efforts in coercive control, rather than Hollywood style "mind control". We have extensive records of comparable efforts in East Germany [2], and it is reasonable to suspect that the American programs followed a similar thread of "research". Why wouldn't they? The tactics were apparently very successful. If you buy that argument, then the cited examples are logical successors. It is very easy to dismiss "mind control" programs as a weird vestige of a bygone era, but I think it is unlikely that institutions drew no durable lessons from them. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol44no4/html/v44i4a07p_0021.htm https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWjzT2l5C34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWjzT2l5C34
    - nl 7y ago
      The article was specifically about MK-Ultra style mind control. Saying there are other ways to try to get people to do what they want - especially at a population level as the OP claimed - is a completely different proposition. I've linked elsewhere to IARPA SHARP which is the closest thing to actual mind control. Do I think intelligence agencies try to manipulate public opinion by methods similar to advertising agencies? Yes absolutely! Do I think this this is mind control or anything resembling that? No, and I think it's important to note that despite all the leaks (Snowden, Wikileaks, etc etc) there is no hints that I'm wrong about this.
      - rmrfstar 7y ago
        The whole point of the comment is that we don't know what "MK-Ultra style mind control" means because the records were destroyed. We can only make educated guesses about what is likely to have survived the program. If you think the guess is bad, that's fair. It's another thing to get hung up on the semantics of "mind control".
naringas 7y ago
what makes you think they would have stopped?
fit2rule 7y ago
Operation bluebird. MK ultra. Palantir. Keyscore. Have you not been paying attention?
- nl 7y ago
  Only MK Ultra (which this article is about!) is anything resembling mind control. Apparently I'm paying more attention to what this is specifically about than you are!
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    Keyscore: social control. Palantir: social control. Bluebird: mind control at scale. I think you're being intentionally disingenuous. No sane person can look at those social control programs and think "well this is innocuous" or "compatible with the free and open society"...
    - nl 7y ago
      I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm arguing specifically that the statement "these [mind-control] programs were prototypes for still-ongoing [mind-control] attacks on the American public." Project Bluebird was in the 1950s which the article is about. You seem to be just pulling in all kinds of bad intelligence products. I'm not arguing that at all.
      - fit2rule 7y ago
        These programs are related inasmuch as they revolve around controlling the American public mindset with regards to the military industrial complexes' illegal wars. CIA currently runs 1000+ black ops 'interrogation' sites around the world for the purpose of fulfilling the goals of these kinds of programs. The purpose is the justification of endless war and as we have seen, are quite effective at swaying American public opinion. cf., ISIS, et al,.
ncmncm 7y ago
Surely you recall the US invading Iraq on the basis of fabricated evidence and an absolutely massive propaganda campaign? They harvested five trillion dollars off of that one stunt. Do you imagine they decided to quit while they were ahead?
- nl 7y ago
  Did you read the article? Propaganda is not the same as the mind control they are talking about or the OP claimed is being used at the population level.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    Propaganda was and is a big part of it. Lying about what was done is a big part of it. The Big Lie is that the program ended. Most people believe it, although not for any defensible reason.

"these programs were prototypes for still-ongoing attacks on the American public." Needs evidence.

by jariel 7y ago

"these programs were prototypes for still-ongoing attacks on the American public." Needs evidence.

One of many examples [1]. These tactics would be familiar to the Romans. They are as old as the hills. They are apparently common enough that HBGary proposed a collaboration with Palantir to use them against Glenn Greenwald [2]. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110209/22340513034/leaked-hbgary-documents-show-plan-to-spread-wikileaks-propaganda-bofa-attack-glenn-greenwald.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110209/22340513034/leake...

jariel 7y ago
These have absolutely nothing to do with said 'mind control' programs.
nl 7y ago
These aren't mind control at all! Saying "the intelligence community is horrible" isn't the same as "these programs were prototypes for still-ongoing [mind control] attacks on the American public."
- rmrfstar 7y ago
  We don't really know what took place in the "mind control" program, as the records were systematically destroyed [1]. One plausible interpretation is that these were mainly efforts in coercive control, rather than Hollywood style "mind control". We have extensive records of comparable efforts in East Germany [2], and it is reasonable to suspect that the American programs followed a similar thread of "research". Why wouldn't they? The tactics were apparently very successful. If you buy that argument, then the cited examples are logical successors. It is very easy to dismiss "mind control" programs as a weird vestige of a bygone era, but I think it is unlikely that institutions drew no durable lessons from them. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol44no4/html/v44i4a07p_0021.htm https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWjzT2l5C34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWjzT2l5C34
  - nl 7y ago
    The article was specifically about MK-Ultra style mind control. Saying there are other ways to try to get people to do what they want - especially at a population level as the OP claimed - is a completely different proposition. I've linked elsewhere to IARPA SHARP which is the closest thing to actual mind control. Do I think intelligence agencies try to manipulate public opinion by methods similar to advertising agencies? Yes absolutely! Do I think this this is mind control or anything resembling that? No, and I think it's important to note that despite all the leaks (Snowden, Wikileaks, etc etc) there is no hints that I'm wrong about this.
    - rmrfstar 7y ago
      The whole point of the comment is that we don't know what "MK-Ultra style mind control" means because the records were destroyed. We can only make educated guesses about what is likely to have survived the program. If you think the guess is bad, that's fair. It's another thing to get hung up on the semantics of "mind control".

naringas 7y ago

what makes you think they would have stopped?

fit2rule 7y ago

Operation bluebird. MK ultra. Palantir. Keyscore. Have you not been paying attention?

nl 7y ago
Only MK Ultra (which this article is about!) is anything resembling mind control. Apparently I'm paying more attention to what this is specifically about than you are!
- fit2rule 7y ago
  Keyscore: social control. Palantir: social control. Bluebird: mind control at scale. I think you're being intentionally disingenuous. No sane person can look at those social control programs and think "well this is innocuous" or "compatible with the free and open society"...
  - nl 7y ago
    I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm arguing specifically that the statement "these [mind-control] programs were prototypes for still-ongoing [mind-control] attacks on the American public." Project Bluebird was in the 1950s which the article is about. You seem to be just pulling in all kinds of bad intelligence products. I'm not arguing that at all.
    - fit2rule 7y ago
      These programs are related inasmuch as they revolve around controlling the American public mindset with regards to the military industrial complexes' illegal wars. CIA currently runs 1000+ black ops 'interrogation' sites around the world for the purpose of fulfilling the goals of these kinds of programs. The purpose is the justification of endless war and as we have seen, are quite effective at swaying American public opinion. cf., ISIS, et al,.

ncmncm 7y ago

Surely you recall the US invading Iraq on the basis of fabricated evidence and an absolutely massive propaganda campaign? They harvested five trillion dollars off of that one stunt. Do you imagine they decided to quit while they were ahead?

nl 7y ago
Did you read the article? Propaganda is not the same as the mind control they are talking about or the OP claimed is being used at the population level.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Propaganda was and is a big part of it. Lying about what was done is a big part of it. The Big Lie is that the program ended. Most people believe it, although not for any defensible reason.