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I agree, and if I worked there I would completely ignore that clause. I wouldn't even worry about lining through it before I signed on. If they want me to give

I agree, and if I worked there I would completely ignore that clause. I wouldn't even worry about lining through it before I signed on. If they want me to give up my ability to make more money with my time, they can bloody well pay me for it. It's unconscionable and I'd like to see them try to enforce that clause on an employee who decided to do additional work.

tptacek 16y ago
Depending on the venue, moonlighting clauses range from almost completely enforceable (MA) to almost (but not entirely) nonenforceable (CA). Overshadowing all legal issues specific to moonlighting is "at-will employment", the standard in practically the whole of the US, which allows a company to fire you without cause. So, if you're moonlighting at an unrelated tech company in California, you're probably fine. But if you take an off-hours job in the same industry as your employer in New York, you can probably be fired. Generally, a prospective employer who says "we have a four day work week, but we only want team members who are going to work this one job" seems to me to be offering a fair trade. If you find those terms unconscionable, you shouldn't accept a job there.
- bmelton 16y ago
  While I generally agree, without seeing the contract, I'm left wondering exactly where the line is drawn. I accept that, since I'm not being offered an employment contract at Carsonified, it's perhaps none of my business, and that's fair -- but mostly I'm curious about the verbiage on the 'day off' bit.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Seriously, how do you argue with this even a little? Virtually every other employer in the world will fire you instantly for working a second job during the day on Friday, as an extension of the rule that requires them to fire you for going fishing during the day on Friday. It is beyond reasonable for an employer to require you not to work a second job on Friday in exchange for the day off. So far past reasonable I can't imagine it ever coming up the real world; team members at the 4-day-a-week would probably quit before alienating the company. A four day work week is just a huge, generous benefit.
    - bmelton 16y ago
      I didn't necessarily say that I was arguing. I mean, it's perfectly within their right -- but, where it's generally more acceptable to allow moonlighting on the proverbial Saturdays and Sundays, if they're advertising Friday as a 'day off', then I should be free to do the same. I completely agree with your assertion that it's their right to request you not to, and I can certainly understand the logic of it, specifically in trying not to attract people looking to do the minimal work effort so that they can reap the benefits of another paycheck. Regardless, I have questions. If the Friday is a 'day off', then how is it different than Saturday and Sunday. Do they also insist that you not have a second job on those days? What specifically does it prohibit? Can I work on an open source project? Can I boostrap my own projects? What if they become successful? I was really hoping somebody from Carsonified could speak to this really, and not trying to start an argument, but I do have my own take on things -- I'd just love to know more.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        Speaking only for myself, if I started a company that offered a 4-day work week, and a candidate told me they intended to spend that time freelancing, "NO HIRE".
        bmelton 16y ago
        So, where do you draw the line between 'spending that time freelancing' and 'spending that time programming to become a better programmer?' My major gripe with it is that I'd rather have a flexible schedule that allowed me to work when I was in the zone and rest when I was weary. I understand that, from an employer's perspective, it's hard to monitor, and especially hard to make sure that you're "getting your money's worth" to a micro-manager, but if the core philosophy is that they want me to be highly productive and well-rested, those ideals are somewhat at odds -- at least for the way I work. I'd much rather spend 14 hours non-stop on something if I'm making progress on it, and rest when the task is finished than be arbitrarily asked to stop for whatever reason. This doesn't burn me out in the least. Doing that non-stop definitely does, but I generally allow myself time to reset between tasks, when I'm less likely to forget things, or lose track of where I was in the code.
- bartonfink 16y ago
  As described in this posting, it's ridiculously vague, and as I said above, I'd like to see someone try to enforce it. What if I want to mow my lawn on Friday? Is that acceptable? What if I want to mow someone else's lawn as a favor? What if I want to mow someone else's lawn and they pay me even though I'm not running a lawn-mowing business? What if, instead of mowing someone's lawn I help them out by reinstalling some software or configuring their home network? What if I do a good enough job that they recommend me to a mutual acquaintance? To someone they know from their work? To others in the neighborhood? There's a huge range of options that this paints over, and the devil's in the details. As they've described their policy of "giving back" Friday, it could be interpreted as not letting their employees do anything except lay in bed because, damnit, they need to know their employees are resting like the owners intended. Frankly, I'm not convinced you're seeing the implications to such a vague policy.
  - allwein 16y ago
    And frankly, I think you're missing the atmosphere in which the policy is offered. I think the kind of place that is willing to offer you a 32 hour week with a day off is the kind of place that's not going to be overly concerned about slicing and dicing the policy to the finest point. It strikes me that a place this good-natured wouldn't split hairs.

tptacek 16y ago

Depending on the venue, moonlighting clauses range from almost completely enforceable (MA) to almost (but not entirely) nonenforceable (CA). Overshadowing all legal issues specific to moonlighting is "at-will employment", the standard in practically the whole of the US, which allows a company to fire you without cause. So, if you're moonlighting at an unrelated tech company in California, you're probably fine. But if you take an off-hours job in the same industry as your employer in New York, you can probably be fired. Generally, a prospective employer who says "we have a four day work week, but we only want team members who are going to work this one job" seems to me to be offering a fair trade. If you find those terms unconscionable, you shouldn't accept a job there.

bmelton 16y ago
While I generally agree, without seeing the contract, I'm left wondering exactly where the line is drawn. I accept that, since I'm not being offered an employment contract at Carsonified, it's perhaps none of my business, and that's fair -- but mostly I'm curious about the verbiage on the 'day off' bit.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Seriously, how do you argue with this even a little? Virtually every other employer in the world will fire you instantly for working a second job during the day on Friday, as an extension of the rule that requires them to fire you for going fishing during the day on Friday. It is beyond reasonable for an employer to require you not to work a second job on Friday in exchange for the day off. So far past reasonable I can't imagine it ever coming up the real world; team members at the 4-day-a-week would probably quit before alienating the company. A four day work week is just a huge, generous benefit.
  - bmelton 16y ago
    I didn't necessarily say that I was arguing. I mean, it's perfectly within their right -- but, where it's generally more acceptable to allow moonlighting on the proverbial Saturdays and Sundays, if they're advertising Friday as a 'day off', then I should be free to do the same. I completely agree with your assertion that it's their right to request you not to, and I can certainly understand the logic of it, specifically in trying not to attract people looking to do the minimal work effort so that they can reap the benefits of another paycheck. Regardless, I have questions. If the Friday is a 'day off', then how is it different than Saturday and Sunday. Do they also insist that you not have a second job on those days? What specifically does it prohibit? Can I work on an open source project? Can I boostrap my own projects? What if they become successful? I was really hoping somebody from Carsonified could speak to this really, and not trying to start an argument, but I do have my own take on things -- I'd just love to know more.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      Speaking only for myself, if I started a company that offered a 4-day work week, and a candidate told me they intended to spend that time freelancing, "NO HIRE".
      - bmelton 16y ago
        So, where do you draw the line between 'spending that time freelancing' and 'spending that time programming to become a better programmer?' My major gripe with it is that I'd rather have a flexible schedule that allowed me to work when I was in the zone and rest when I was weary. I understand that, from an employer's perspective, it's hard to monitor, and especially hard to make sure that you're "getting your money's worth" to a micro-manager, but if the core philosophy is that they want me to be highly productive and well-rested, those ideals are somewhat at odds -- at least for the way I work. I'd much rather spend 14 hours non-stop on something if I'm making progress on it, and rest when the task is finished than be arbitrarily asked to stop for whatever reason. This doesn't burn me out in the least. Doing that non-stop definitely does, but I generally allow myself time to reset between tasks, when I'm less likely to forget things, or lose track of where I was in the code.
bartonfink 16y ago
As described in this posting, it's ridiculously vague, and as I said above, I'd like to see someone try to enforce it. What if I want to mow my lawn on Friday? Is that acceptable? What if I want to mow someone else's lawn as a favor? What if I want to mow someone else's lawn and they pay me even though I'm not running a lawn-mowing business? What if, instead of mowing someone's lawn I help them out by reinstalling some software or configuring their home network? What if I do a good enough job that they recommend me to a mutual acquaintance? To someone they know from their work? To others in the neighborhood? There's a huge range of options that this paints over, and the devil's in the details. As they've described their policy of "giving back" Friday, it could be interpreted as not letting their employees do anything except lay in bed because, damnit, they need to know their employees are resting like the owners intended. Frankly, I'm not convinced you're seeing the implications to such a vague policy.
- allwein 16y ago
  And frankly, I think you're missing the atmosphere in which the policy is offered. I think the kind of place that is willing to offer you a 32 hour week with a day off is the kind of place that's not going to be overly concerned about slicing and dicing the policy to the finest point. It strikes me that a place this good-natured wouldn't split hairs.