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So based on skincolor you can tell if I started with 2x the money? You can tell whether he is a millionaire or not? If he lived in a safe area or not? You judge

So based on skincolor you can tell if I started with 2x the money? You can tell whether he is a millionaire or not? If he lived in a safe area or not? You judge someone based on skincolor, you can back it up with numbers sure, but you didn't judge based on who he is. Telling people that if only they had a different skincolor that maybe they would have made it. Making the focus on something you cant change is just poison. If you fix the economic divide violence goes down, substance abuse go down, happiness goes up, and the major beneficiaries are minorities and the ones that will be hit the hardest are the majority group, no racism necessary.

balls187 7y ago
> So based on skincolor you can tell if I started with 2x the money? You can tell whether he is a millionaire or not? If he lived in a safe area or not? You judge someone based on skincolor, you can back it up with numbers sure, but you didn't judge based on who he is. The data on US household median income by race is well published data, and shows Black household income lags behind white household income. So yes, while I cannot tell exactly your financial situation, I can make an educated guess with some degree of certainty that if you are white, you were more likely to grew up in a household with higher income. Educational attainment is also correlated to race as well. For whites 25 and older, 65% have had some form of college, compared to 55% blacks. And is ONLY with race information. Add a zipcode, that certainty increases. People are upset with Affirmative Action, because it is picking winners based on race. However those same people fail to recognize factors in their lives that have effectively picked them as winners. That is what society is referring to when they speak of "privileged." > If you fix the economic divide violence goes down, substance abuse go down, happiness goes up, and the major beneficiaries are minorities and the ones that will be hit the hardest are the majority group, no racism necessary. I think you've made my point--the economic divide correlates with race. You cannot fix the divide without first acknowledging that racism largely is responsible for it, and continues to further it.
- frog_squid 7y ago
  Yeah, but the system is gamed and a huge proportion of affirmative action admits don't actually fall in the wealth category that the majority of the people in that minority group would, i.e. most affirmative action admits come from very wealthy families. The data shows this if you search online. In my Ivy League college, several of the Latino students living in my Freshman house were actually bi-racial with white dads and came from upper middle class, well-educated households.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    > most affirmative action admits come from very wealthy families You can link a source here, as I'm skeptical that this is actually true. That said, many minority students at elite institutions were already attending elite high schools on scholarship - so there is a kernel of truth there.
    - frog_squid 7y ago
      Yes, in Thomas Sowell's Affirmative Action Around the World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_Action_Around_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_Action_Around_the_... "They tend to benefit primarily the most fortunate among the preferred group (e.g. black millionaires), often to the detriment of the least fortunate among the non-preferred groups (e.g. poor whites)"
      - MiroF 7y ago
        Thomas Sowell is far from an objective observer here. If this is a true claim, then I'd like to see a stat thrown out. If we're just comparing anecdotes, as someone who attended one of these "elite" universities, this didn't seem to be the case at all.
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    White and black men do not retain upper income status across generations at equal rates. White men who are born to wealthy parents are highly likely to remain in the same wealth quintile (something like 60-80% do), while black men who are in the top quintile are about 20% likely to end up in a given quintile, including the one they were born into. Affirmative action is important even to wealthy black families, if the goal is to mirror the mechanical flow of wealth in America's white families.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  The economic divide has existed way longer than racism over color ever has in most of the world. You are being played by the elite by a divide and conquer approach. How would you even measure how black someone is? The whole thing is just absurd. I'll teach my kids that skincolor doesn't matter and to NOT judge based on that ever.
  - balls187 7y ago
    > I'll teach my kids that skincolor doesn't matter and to NOT judge based on that ever. And you'd be a fool to believe you are the first person to teach their kids that and expert it will solve problems. You're belief in a color blind society actually perpetuates the problem--by ignoring injustices that have happened historically, and currently, to people of color. I'm teaching my kids that sometimes life plays hard, especially since they are bi-racial. A person isn't defined by their race, but it is part of their identity, and they may have different experiences that should be valued and appreciated.
- luminaobscura 7y ago
  well then you could just do affirmative action based in family income? even if most of the beneficiary of this could be African Americans, everyone would be fine with it. Why make it a race issue?
  - luckylion 7y ago
    A random thought: to protect their upper class interests, they cannot admit that it's a class issue. Calling it a race-issue instead (and doing something that has proven useless) shifts the debate.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    Harvard does do affirmative action based on family income, it's just that people throw much less of a hissy fit over it.
- seankimdesign 7y ago
  No, your conclusion is flawed. If the goal is solely to fix the economic divide, why are we even bothering with race as its proxy? It's a terrible indicator for that purpose, especially when much clearer-cut numeric factors exist such as the students' household income. I don't think your reply addresses much of the original question.
  - balls187 7y ago
    > If the goal is solely to fix the economic divide, why are we even bothering with race as its proxy? Because race isn't a proxy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
MiroF 7y ago
> You judge someone based on skincolor, you can back it up with numbers sure, but you didn't judge based on who he is. The problem is that other people, way way way earlier in the educational pipeline, are already making these judgements, but the opposite of Harvard. "Oh no, Andre, I'm not sure that you would actually want to take this honors science course that much, how about I just put you on on-level?" This happens all the time, not to mention intergenerational effects.

balls187 7y ago

> So based on skincolor you can tell if I started with 2x the money? You can tell whether he is a millionaire or not? If he lived in a safe area or not? You judge someone based on skincolor, you can back it up with numbers sure, but you didn't judge based on who he is. The data on US household median income by race is well published data, and shows Black household income lags behind white household income. So yes, while I cannot tell exactly your financial situation, I can make an educated guess with some degree of certainty that if you are white, you were more likely to grew up in a household with higher income. Educational attainment is also correlated to race as well. For whites 25 and older, 65% have had some form of college, compared to 55% blacks. And is ONLY with race information. Add a zipcode, that certainty increases. People are upset with Affirmative Action, because it is picking winners based on race. However those same people fail to recognize factors in their lives that have effectively picked them as winners. That is what society is referring to when they speak of "privileged." > If you fix the economic divide violence goes down, substance abuse go down, happiness goes up, and the major beneficiaries are minorities and the ones that will be hit the hardest are the majority group, no racism necessary. I think you've made my point--the economic divide correlates with race. You cannot fix the divide without first acknowledging that racism largely is responsible for it, and continues to further it.

frog_squid 7y ago
Yeah, but the system is gamed and a huge proportion of affirmative action admits don't actually fall in the wealth category that the majority of the people in that minority group would, i.e. most affirmative action admits come from very wealthy families. The data shows this if you search online. In my Ivy League college, several of the Latino students living in my Freshman house were actually bi-racial with white dads and came from upper middle class, well-educated households.
- MiroF 7y ago
  > most affirmative action admits come from very wealthy families You can link a source here, as I'm skeptical that this is actually true. That said, many minority students at elite institutions were already attending elite high schools on scholarship - so there is a kernel of truth there.
  - frog_squid 7y ago
    Yes, in Thomas Sowell's Affirmative Action Around the World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_Action_Around_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_Action_Around_the_... "They tend to benefit primarily the most fortunate among the preferred group (e.g. black millionaires), often to the detriment of the least fortunate among the non-preferred groups (e.g. poor whites)"
    - MiroF 7y ago
      Thomas Sowell is far from an objective observer here. If this is a true claim, then I'd like to see a stat thrown out. If we're just comparing anecdotes, as someone who attended one of these "elite" universities, this didn't seem to be the case at all.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  White and black men do not retain upper income status across generations at equal rates. White men who are born to wealthy parents are highly likely to remain in the same wealth quintile (something like 60-80% do), while black men who are in the top quintile are about 20% likely to end up in a given quintile, including the one they were born into. Affirmative action is important even to wealthy black families, if the goal is to mirror the mechanical flow of wealth in America's white families.
danielscrubs 7y ago
The economic divide has existed way longer than racism over color ever has in most of the world. You are being played by the elite by a divide and conquer approach. How would you even measure how black someone is? The whole thing is just absurd. I'll teach my kids that skincolor doesn't matter and to NOT judge based on that ever.
- balls187 7y ago
  > I'll teach my kids that skincolor doesn't matter and to NOT judge based on that ever. And you'd be a fool to believe you are the first person to teach their kids that and expert it will solve problems. You're belief in a color blind society actually perpetuates the problem--by ignoring injustices that have happened historically, and currently, to people of color. I'm teaching my kids that sometimes life plays hard, especially since they are bi-racial. A person isn't defined by their race, but it is part of their identity, and they may have different experiences that should be valued and appreciated.
luminaobscura 7y ago
well then you could just do affirmative action based in family income? even if most of the beneficiary of this could be African Americans, everyone would be fine with it. Why make it a race issue?
- luckylion 7y ago
  A random thought: to protect their upper class interests, they cannot admit that it's a class issue. Calling it a race-issue instead (and doing something that has proven useless) shifts the debate.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Harvard does do affirmative action based on family income, it's just that people throw much less of a hissy fit over it.
seankimdesign 7y ago
No, your conclusion is flawed. If the goal is solely to fix the economic divide, why are we even bothering with race as its proxy? It's a terrible indicator for that purpose, especially when much clearer-cut numeric factors exist such as the students' household income. I don't think your reply addresses much of the original question.
- balls187 7y ago
  > If the goal is solely to fix the economic divide, why are we even bothering with race as its proxy? Because race isn't a proxy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

MiroF 7y ago

> You judge someone based on skincolor, you can back it up with numbers sure, but you didn't judge based on who he is. The problem is that other people, way way way earlier in the educational pipeline, are already making these judgements, but the opposite of Harvard. "Oh no, Andre, I'm not sure that you would actually want to take this honors science course that much, how about I just put you on on-level?" This happens all the time, not to mention intergenerational effects.