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I think it is pretty dangerous to tell the entire population that their choices are either to install an app which tracks their movement, or essentially be unde

I think it is pretty dangerous to tell the entire population that their choices are either to install an app which tracks their movement, or essentially be under house arrest. Even outside of the privacy issues, some people just don't have the capabilities to do that, my grandmother is never going to figure out how to work a phone, or get set up and monitor a contact tracing app. Maybe we could provide a free alternative that protects your privacy, eg. wearing a mask whenever you are in public.

jariel 7y ago
The choice right now is 'stay inside or die'. Just 'wearing masks in public' is obviously not a solution or else we'd be doing it, or someone else would and we'd have evidence that it works, but just the opposite. Without a vaccine, our options are extremely limited. 'Universal Contact Tracing' with testing follow up is employed in Korea and it's the only solution that has been shown to work (other than total eradication like Taiwan, but you need very strong borders for that). So 'right now' if we had our act together, we could probably start to loosen up, so long as we had contact tracing - and teams ready to follow up on those 'positive tested' so that their contacts can be traced etc.. Just like with everything, there are winners and losers. It wouldn't cost much to get granny a SIM+cheap mobile, and let her know all she has to do is 'keep it on' for her own safety. She can do that with some help.
- iso947 7y ago
  And keep it charged
  - jariel 7y ago
    Somehow Korean Grannies are able to cope (are they magic?) because their country is operational, people are out and about and their economy is functioning at the same time that they keep Coronavirus at bay. Meanwhile HN-ers in an uproar over the government 'possibly knowing their location' (but probably not really) literally as they are hunkered down at home, the most severe form of de-facto emergency law in the nation history ... The Koreans have effectively managed Coronavirus and their government isn't going to throw them all in jail any time soon, it's entirely reasonable and rational to have a tracking policy in place that's proportional and effective.
- GhostVII 7y ago
  Pretty much every freedom you give to people will cause more deaths, and that was true before COVID-19. You could make the same argument you are making now to justify requiring everyone to be tracked during a regular flu season - flu deaths are certainly lower, but still in the tens of thousands and could be reduced with contact tracing. Personally I think there is almost no scenario in which it is OK to deny people access to things like grocery stores, or not allow them to see their family living elsewhere, because they don't have a tracking device on their person. It certainly has a cost, but so does things like end to end encryption, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.
  - jariel 7y ago
    Sorry - but this logic does not add up: Consider that this radically new environment requires a totally different social calculus. >>>>>>>>> You are denied access to your family right now i.e. 'civil liberties' are already exceedingly curtailed. How are all these arguments against 'contact tracing' holding up against the fact you are literally, right now, practically locked in your home. In most places if you see your family right now you can be fined. There are police out there right now checking to make sure you either going to the grocery store or some other important thing. Right now you are living under the most serious curtailment of civil liberties in American history. So why are you not screaming against it? The reason is that here on HN people care about 'government information'. It's a 'hot button issue' so people react with concern. >>>>>>>> You could make the same argument you are making now to justify requiring everyone to be tracked during a regular flu season. No, absolutely not! The 'flu' is not existentially destructive to civilization, it's not requiring you to be locked in your home right now. COVID is pandemic, which we have 'controlled' by locking down in our homes. Obviously, this cannot last, so we need a 'solution' to get going. Masks are not enough and neither will be general social distancing. Absent a vaccine there are only 2 proven solutions: 1) Eradication (like Taiwan) where nobody but incoming people might have it, and they keep a very close eye on people coming in. 2) Contact Tracing (like Korea). People can generally move freely, but they have to have contact tracing and if the gov. requires them to get a test, or requires them to show their 'social contact history' they have to. These are the only solution that has proven to work. The 'lifting' of social measures over the next few months is in the US is going to be very dangerous because COVID will just come right back again. The US economy is like an airplane without an engine heading straight for the ground, like a person who's heart has been stopped. It's going to come apart at the seams unless something can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Choice So the choice is: 1) Open up and have the pandemic come back 2) Stay in your home, the economy tailspins, it falls apart, the country falls apart 3) Vaccine 4) An aggressive social policy that works, the only one on the table seems to be Korea. Obviously there are problems with 'social tracing' and government involvement, but in light of the existential problem we face, they are small.

jariel 7y ago

The choice right now is 'stay inside or die'. Just 'wearing masks in public' is obviously not a solution or else we'd be doing it, or someone else would and we'd have evidence that it works, but just the opposite. Without a vaccine, our options are extremely limited. 'Universal Contact Tracing' with testing follow up is employed in Korea and it's the only solution that has been shown to work (other than total eradication like Taiwan, but you need very strong borders for that). So 'right now' if we had our act together, we could probably start to loosen up, so long as we had contact tracing - and teams ready to follow up on those 'positive tested' so that their contacts can be traced etc.. Just like with everything, there are winners and losers. It wouldn't cost much to get granny a SIM+cheap mobile, and let her know all she has to do is 'keep it on' for her own safety. She can do that with some help.

iso947 7y ago
And keep it charged
- jariel 7y ago
  Somehow Korean Grannies are able to cope (are they magic?) because their country is operational, people are out and about and their economy is functioning at the same time that they keep Coronavirus at bay. Meanwhile HN-ers in an uproar over the government 'possibly knowing their location' (but probably not really) literally as they are hunkered down at home, the most severe form of de-facto emergency law in the nation history ... The Koreans have effectively managed Coronavirus and their government isn't going to throw them all in jail any time soon, it's entirely reasonable and rational to have a tracking policy in place that's proportional and effective.
GhostVII 7y ago
Pretty much every freedom you give to people will cause more deaths, and that was true before COVID-19. You could make the same argument you are making now to justify requiring everyone to be tracked during a regular flu season - flu deaths are certainly lower, but still in the tens of thousands and could be reduced with contact tracing. Personally I think there is almost no scenario in which it is OK to deny people access to things like grocery stores, or not allow them to see their family living elsewhere, because they don't have a tracking device on their person. It certainly has a cost, but so does things like end to end encryption, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.
- jariel 7y ago
  Sorry - but this logic does not add up: Consider that this radically new environment requires a totally different social calculus. >>>>>>>>> You are denied access to your family right now i.e. 'civil liberties' are already exceedingly curtailed. How are all these arguments against 'contact tracing' holding up against the fact you are literally, right now, practically locked in your home. In most places if you see your family right now you can be fined. There are police out there right now checking to make sure you either going to the grocery store or some other important thing. Right now you are living under the most serious curtailment of civil liberties in American history. So why are you not screaming against it? The reason is that here on HN people care about 'government information'. It's a 'hot button issue' so people react with concern. >>>>>>>> You could make the same argument you are making now to justify requiring everyone to be tracked during a regular flu season. No, absolutely not! The 'flu' is not existentially destructive to civilization, it's not requiring you to be locked in your home right now. COVID is pandemic, which we have 'controlled' by locking down in our homes. Obviously, this cannot last, so we need a 'solution' to get going. Masks are not enough and neither will be general social distancing. Absent a vaccine there are only 2 proven solutions: 1) Eradication (like Taiwan) where nobody but incoming people might have it, and they keep a very close eye on people coming in. 2) Contact Tracing (like Korea). People can generally move freely, but they have to have contact tracing and if the gov. requires them to get a test, or requires them to show their 'social contact history' they have to. These are the only solution that has proven to work. The 'lifting' of social measures over the next few months is in the US is going to be very dangerous because COVID will just come right back again. The US economy is like an airplane without an engine heading straight for the ground, like a person who's heart has been stopped. It's going to come apart at the seams unless something can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Choice So the choice is: 1) Open up and have the pandemic come back 2) Stay in your home, the economy tailspins, it falls apart, the country falls apart 3) Vaccine 4) An aggressive social policy that works, the only one on the table seems to be Korea. Obviously there are problems with 'social tracing' and government involvement, but in light of the existential problem we face, they are small.