4 ms·

This was one of the most depressing charts https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/medschool.png https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/medscho

by pcurve 7y ago

This was one of the most depressing charts https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/medschool.png https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/medschool.pn... if you're asian, your chance of being accepted to medical school is 1/8th of black in lower score zone. 1/8th. You can have the highest GPA and MCAT. Your chance of getting in is still lower than black with lowest GPA and MCAT. I don't know if the stats are adjusted for schools applied, but still quite an eye opening chart. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's bad.

vikramkr 7y ago
The thing with med school discrimination is, I almost don't mind. There's no blatant hypocrisy with legacy admissions. There is a genuine medical reason to have more black doctors having to do with trust of medical professionals. There are barriers faced by black applicants that are not faced to the same extent by asian applicants. And, the med schools are very clear about what those thresholds are and what that difference in rate is. I can understand that there's a combination of people that look like XYZ wanting doctors that look like them and that there's discrimination faced by XYZ that needs to be factored in (XYZ being black, latino, native american, etc) making that individual with a lower score a better future doctor. And, results in the long run show that people admitted on affirmative action don't necessarily fare worse. The med school process never seemed as unfair as the undergrad process, even though the med school process is just as biased. And, we're not asked to sacrifice a spot for some rich white kid who is only getting in because of connections. Not in med school, where qualifications actually do matter and there's no such thing as a gentleman's C for the legacies.
- pcurve 7y ago
  if you wouldn't mind providing sources regarding long term performance, I'd actually love to read it so that I can have more balanced view.
  - vikramkr 7y ago
    On the importance of having black doctors: https://www.nber.org/papers/w24787.pdf https://www.nber.org/papers/w24787.pdf The long term equal performance thing is less clearly demonstrated, justice scalia for example had a very strong belief otherwise. Here's a perspective on it from the no difference side (i'm sure you'll have already read the other versions of the argument): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/12/10/scalia-was-wrong-students-admitted-through-affirmative-action-thrive-at-elite-colleges/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/12/1... I'm more convinced by the need for black doctors than the performance argument personally. If having a black doctor for a black community leads to better health outcomes because people trust doctors that look like them (with good reason, unfortunately, things like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment have not been forgotten), then medical outcomes are medical outcomes. If their race, in that case, makes them a better doctor for that community and that community needs more doctors to address large health disparities, then that in and of itself is a type of performance metric that's important. I don't like that that's the case. I'm obviously biased since i'm asian and I'd very much like higher admit rates. And I'm idealistic in thinking race shouldn't matter in administering medicine. But that's not the world we live in yet. And it's not just from the patient perspective, a different sort of cultural understanding and empathy from the doctor also helps them practice, which their race or gender can provide.
    - throwlaplace 7y ago
      >And it's not just from the patient perspective, a different sort of cultural understanding and empathy from the doctor also helps them practice, which their race or gender can provide. this is the biggest factor i think personally (though i'm not a doctor) - i imagine it's very hard to treat people effectively if you're not intimately familiar with their circumstances.
- WesternStar 7y ago
  I just don't get the downvotes. Black Patients go to doctors and say doctor I think I need help doctor goes "You're just whining" then the patient dies. https://newsone.com/3903170/black-women-call-out-hospital-mistreatment-after-mother-dies-during-childbirth-medical-center/ https://newsone.com/3903170/black-women-call-out-hospital-mi... that's just the story from this year. They've had at least 2 in the last 3 years.
- fulldecent2 7y ago
  +1. You're bringing me around. My wife goes to an Asian hairdresser for all important hair work because they better understand her hair. Nothing wrong with that. So why not the same for doctors?
throwlaplace 7y ago
https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018 https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data... 5% of doctors are black. similarly hispanic. 17% are asian. what infuriates me to no end whenever affirmative action comes up is how people refuse to admit just how far behind black and hispanic communities/people are in the united states[1]. and instead of people focusing on the real villain (white supremacy) they pit minorities against each other. the solution isn't to take spots from slightly less qualified[2] black people - the solution is to take spots from overprivileged white people. but that's of course unfathomable right? just like it's unfathomable that instead of cutting welfare programs to pay for some sort policy we increase taxes. [1] just look at this it's literally a fucking order of magnitude difference: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wealth-race-ff03112019 https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wea... [2] what does it mean to be "qualified" for undergrad degree anyway.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Worth noting that white people are also underrepresented relative to share of population among elite colleges.

by pcurve 7y ago

vikramkr 7y ago

The thing with med school discrimination is, I almost don't mind. There's no blatant hypocrisy with legacy admissions. There is a genuine medical reason to have more black doctors having to do with trust of medical professionals. There are barriers faced by black applicants that are not faced to the same extent by asian applicants. And, the med schools are very clear about what those thresholds are and what that difference in rate is. I can understand that there's a combination of people that look like XYZ wanting doctors that look like them and that there's discrimination faced by XYZ that needs to be factored in (XYZ being black, latino, native american, etc) making that individual with a lower score a better future doctor. And, results in the long run show that people admitted on affirmative action don't necessarily fare worse. The med school process never seemed as unfair as the undergrad process, even though the med school process is just as biased. And, we're not asked to sacrifice a spot for some rich white kid who is only getting in because of connections. Not in med school, where qualifications actually do matter and there's no such thing as a gentleman's C for the legacies.

pcurve 7y ago
if you wouldn't mind providing sources regarding long term performance, I'd actually love to read it so that I can have more balanced view.
- vikramkr 7y ago
  On the importance of having black doctors: https://www.nber.org/papers/w24787.pdf https://www.nber.org/papers/w24787.pdf The long term equal performance thing is less clearly demonstrated, justice scalia for example had a very strong belief otherwise. Here's a perspective on it from the no difference side (i'm sure you'll have already read the other versions of the argument): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/12/10/scalia-was-wrong-students-admitted-through-affirmative-action-thrive-at-elite-colleges/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/12/1... I'm more convinced by the need for black doctors than the performance argument personally. If having a black doctor for a black community leads to better health outcomes because people trust doctors that look like them (with good reason, unfortunately, things like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment have not been forgotten), then medical outcomes are medical outcomes. If their race, in that case, makes them a better doctor for that community and that community needs more doctors to address large health disparities, then that in and of itself is a type of performance metric that's important. I don't like that that's the case. I'm obviously biased since i'm asian and I'd very much like higher admit rates. And I'm idealistic in thinking race shouldn't matter in administering medicine. But that's not the world we live in yet. And it's not just from the patient perspective, a different sort of cultural understanding and empathy from the doctor also helps them practice, which their race or gender can provide.
  - throwlaplace 7y ago
    >And it's not just from the patient perspective, a different sort of cultural understanding and empathy from the doctor also helps them practice, which their race or gender can provide. this is the biggest factor i think personally (though i'm not a doctor) - i imagine it's very hard to treat people effectively if you're not intimately familiar with their circumstances.
WesternStar 7y ago
I just don't get the downvotes. Black Patients go to doctors and say doctor I think I need help doctor goes "You're just whining" then the patient dies. https://newsone.com/3903170/black-women-call-out-hospital-mistreatment-after-mother-dies-during-childbirth-medical-center/ https://newsone.com/3903170/black-women-call-out-hospital-mi... that's just the story from this year. They've had at least 2 in the last 3 years.
fulldecent2 7y ago
+1. You're bringing me around. My wife goes to an Asian hairdresser for all important hair work because they better understand her hair. Nothing wrong with that. So why not the same for doctors?

throwlaplace 7y ago

https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018 https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data... 5% of doctors are black. similarly hispanic. 17% are asian. what infuriates me to no end whenever affirmative action comes up is how people refuse to admit just how far behind black and hispanic communities/people are in the united states[1]. and instead of people focusing on the real villain (white supremacy) they pit minorities against each other. the solution isn't to take spots from slightly less qualified[2] black people - the solution is to take spots from overprivileged white people. but that's of course unfathomable right? just like it's unfathomable that instead of cutting welfare programs to pay for some sort policy we increase taxes. [1] just look at this it's literally a fucking order of magnitude difference: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wealth-race-ff03112019 https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wea... [2] what does it mean to be "qualified" for undergrad degree anyway.

MiroF 7y ago
Worth noting that white people are also underrepresented relative to share of population among elite colleges.