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I mean, I'm really not comparing anything to the EU or European countries? It's simply a fact. Total death counts in the US are still going up. Once the quara

I mean, I'm really not comparing anything to the EU or European countries? It's simply a fact. Total death counts in the US are still going up. Once the quarantine is relaxed and things "open up", we WILL go through a second wave. That is by design of shelter in place. Why the defensiveness on part of the US? With or without the above, it's response has been terrible. Why defend bad practices?

bhupy 6y ago
> Total death counts in the US are still going up. It depends on the state, though. New deaths are decreasing in many States, including Washington, Texas, and California [1]. Looking at the US, as a whole, isn't really useful here. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coronavirus-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coron...
- greendude29 6y ago
  This is ridiculous. I don't understand the defensiveness. The United States is a nation. It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. People can travel freely within these bounds without passports or visas or checkpoints. Of course states have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some states are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one nation? This is how nation-states work in 2020 on planet Earth.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    The European Union also has a federal government and federal bodies which pass policies. It has a directly elected lower house that represents the People with proportional representation[1], and an upper house that represents the Member States with equal representation[2], and an executive branch with a Chief Executive that signs bills into law[3]. People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visas, or checkpoints. Of course, Member States have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some Member States are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one Union? This is how Unions work in 2020 on planet Earth. I think we both agree that looking at the EU as a whole is totally meaningless in the context of the current discussion about Amazon workers. We are simply arguing the same about the United States. This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples. P.S. Speaking of "Nation-States", hilariously enough, Gavin Newsom recently referred to California as a "Nation State"[4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Coun... [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-california-gavin-newsom/610006/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/coronav...
    - greendude29 6y ago
      :( I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states. No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I understand you're going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn't work. > This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples. Again, when did I compare anything to Europe? You brought up the comparison for no reason I can comprehend. Hence my questions about the defensiveness. I don't think we're going to agree, so happy to leave this here.
      - twomoretime 6y ago
        I'm the one who brought up the EU. The purpose was as a size comparison. Look at the differences in covid "stage" between different EU states - that difference is primarily a function of geography - the time it takes for the virus to spread is about the same as the time it takes to isolate and suppress it. Now consider that the US is substantially larger and more sparsely populated. That alone ensures that it doesn't make any more sense to say "US is at stage 1" than it does to say "EU is at stage one", because that fails to capture the range of different stages in different geographic regions (countries/states). That doesn't even begin to capture policy differences. That was the sole reason I brought it up. Nothing defensive anywhere.
        Johnjonjoan 6y ago
        Just like it makes no sense to say the UK is at stage one because London is ahead. You need to stop being so pedantic. I get you guys want to compare but you're beating a dead horse.
        bhupy 6y ago
        The difference is that the UK is a unitary State[1], and as such its COVID strategy is dictated at the UK-level. The sub-national units are not sovereign. The US and the EU are federations[2][3], and their sub-national units are sovereign. Like the EU, the US’s COVID strategy has been left to the States[4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation#Federations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation#Federations [3] https://gizmodo.com/why-is-the-united-states-considered-a-country-but-the-e-1790332731 https://gizmodo.com/why-is-the-united-states-considered-a-co... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay...
  - Izkata 6y ago
    > It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. The response is handled at the state level, not the federal level. The federal level can provide advice and help coordinate actions between states / provide backup resources, but isn't meant to take direct action.
twomoretime 6y ago
This isn't about defensiveness. You state that, collectively, the US is still in stage one, and then go on to say that this is evidence for a poor response and that it's early to recommend returns to work. This is invalid, because for example a couple of states could be bring the total number up. Further, again because of the scale of the US, policy appropriate for one state may not be appropriate for others. Again, the issue here is treating the gigantic US, a mishmash of cultures in 50 states with semiautonomous governments, as a monolithic entity. If you evaluate response policy in this way you're not going to get a good signal.
vinay427 6y ago
What do you expect one state is supposed to do if another is bringing the numbers up due to their autonomous choices? It's just not useful to consider the US as a single entity in matters where states maintain control over most relevant measures. No one is denying the numbers, but it seems rather strange to lump (with respect to the matter) largely independent entities together. If you're trying to make a point, then make that point directly where it applies.

bhupy 6y ago

> Total death counts in the US are still going up. It depends on the state, though. New deaths are decreasing in many States, including Washington, Texas, and California [1]. Looking at the US, as a whole, isn't really useful here. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coronavirus-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coron...

greendude29 6y ago
This is ridiculous. I don't understand the defensiveness. The United States is a nation. It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. People can travel freely within these bounds without passports or visas or checkpoints. Of course states have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some states are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one nation? This is how nation-states work in 2020 on planet Earth.
- bhupy 6y ago
  The European Union also has a federal government and federal bodies which pass policies. It has a directly elected lower house that represents the People with proportional representation[1], and an upper house that represents the Member States with equal representation[2], and an executive branch with a Chief Executive that signs bills into law[3]. People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visas, or checkpoints. Of course, Member States have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some Member States are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one Union? This is how Unions work in 2020 on planet Earth. I think we both agree that looking at the EU as a whole is totally meaningless in the context of the current discussion about Amazon workers. We are simply arguing the same about the United States. This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples. P.S. Speaking of "Nation-States", hilariously enough, Gavin Newsom recently referred to California as a "Nation State"[4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Coun... [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-california-gavin-newsom/610006/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/coronav...
  - greendude29 6y ago
    :( I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states. No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I understand you're going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn't work. > This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples. Again, when did I compare anything to Europe? You brought up the comparison for no reason I can comprehend. Hence my questions about the defensiveness. I don't think we're going to agree, so happy to leave this here.
    - twomoretime 6y ago
      I'm the one who brought up the EU. The purpose was as a size comparison. Look at the differences in covid "stage" between different EU states - that difference is primarily a function of geography - the time it takes for the virus to spread is about the same as the time it takes to isolate and suppress it. Now consider that the US is substantially larger and more sparsely populated. That alone ensures that it doesn't make any more sense to say "US is at stage 1" than it does to say "EU is at stage one", because that fails to capture the range of different stages in different geographic regions (countries/states). That doesn't even begin to capture policy differences. That was the sole reason I brought it up. Nothing defensive anywhere.
      - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
        Just like it makes no sense to say the UK is at stage one because London is ahead. You need to stop being so pedantic. I get you guys want to compare but you're beating a dead horse.
        bhupy 6y ago
        The difference is that the UK is a unitary State[1], and as such its COVID strategy is dictated at the UK-level. The sub-national units are not sovereign. The US and the EU are federations[2][3], and their sub-national units are sovereign. Like the EU, the US’s COVID strategy has been left to the States[4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation#Federations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation#Federations [3] https://gizmodo.com/why-is-the-united-states-considered-a-country-but-the-e-1790332731 https://gizmodo.com/why-is-the-united-states-considered-a-co... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay...
- Izkata 6y ago
  > It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. The response is handled at the state level, not the federal level. The federal level can provide advice and help coordinate actions between states / provide backup resources, but isn't meant to take direct action.

twomoretime 6y ago

This isn't about defensiveness. You state that, collectively, the US is still in stage one, and then go on to say that this is evidence for a poor response and that it's early to recommend returns to work. This is invalid, because for example a couple of states could be bring the total number up. Further, again because of the scale of the US, policy appropriate for one state may not be appropriate for others. Again, the issue here is treating the gigantic US, a mishmash of cultures in 50 states with semiautonomous governments, as a monolithic entity. If you evaluate response policy in this way you're not going to get a good signal.

vinay427 6y ago

What do you expect one state is supposed to do if another is bringing the numbers up due to their autonomous choices? It's just not useful to consider the US as a single entity in matters where states maintain control over most relevant measures. No one is denying the numbers, but it seems rather strange to lump (with respect to the matter) largely independent entities together. If you're trying to make a point, then make that point directly where it applies.