12 ms·

Market-share might be higher, but the market is much smaller, and it's still a minority. Selling to a minority in the US is much more profitable than selling to

by kick 6y ago

Market-share might be higher, but the market is much smaller, and it's still a minority. Selling to a minority in the US is much more profitable than selling to a minority in Europe, solely because of scale.

enriquto 6y ago
> the market is much smaller How so? The population of Europe is about double the population of the USA. Even if you narrow it down to the european union, it is still larger than the USA. Why should the market for laptops be smaller in Europe? Are you sure?
- layer8 6y ago
  Country-specific keyboards may be s factor.
  - bjoli 6y ago
    Probably not. Most european keyboards are just differenr caps on the iso layout. Modern keyboards in the western world are usually ANSI or iso, and I believe there are one or two prominent layouts used in Asian countries. I have never understood why the ANSI layout is popular. The compromises of the iso layout to cram the extra keys in are hardly noticeable apart from the right pinky if you touch type. The key caps are different, of course, but that can't be very expensive.
- kick 6y ago
  I'm absolutely sure, yes, especially if we're talking about the EU alone (but I'd prefer to argue for Europe as a whole), that the market for high-end laptops is significantly smaller. Eastern Europe is an order of magnitude poorer, and is the reason Europe's population is higher than the USA's (that said, there is a reason I initiated with "America"; these customizations are also offered in Canada, and North America is conventionally considered a single market). Especially when considering localizations that have to be made, and that the most valuable European countries require you get physical technical goods certified per-country (mainly looking at Germany here), and that they're getting taxed more, the margin that you can get from Europe is much smaller already than in America. It doesn't make sense to offer the same extent of customization (which, too, lessens margin) as in America.
  - james-mcelwain 6y ago
    Was curious so looked this up -- the North American market is bigger than the EU by ~50 million people.
    - kick 6y ago
      It's even more apparent when you compare them by GDP.
    - dubcanada 6y ago
      Canada doesn't have Lenovo with Linux preinstalled (only Windows & Chrome OS) on their product list. I would assume Mexico and the other islands are also excluded. So it's really only US vs EU.
      - kick 6y ago
        It seems like it's changed from about two years ago; really strange.
    - close04 6y ago
      Then again the North American market is ~500 million, the European market is ~750 million. Also the current statistics (I linked to them in a comment below) suggest Linux usage in North America at ~1.5%, and in Europe at ~2%. This suggests higher usage in Europe.
  - ascar 6y ago
    US plus Canada is just 23% larger than EU by GDP [1]. Based on PPP it's 20% [2]. Considering we are talking about ~20 trillion in GDP and very similar PPP, that hardly seems to be a large enough difference to give your "absolute sure" statement merit. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
    - kick 6y ago
- Shorel 6y ago
  Because Europeans don't buy the latest MacBook every year. A laptop lasting 4 years is perfectly reasonable in Europe. I agree with you about the population, but that is not the whole picture.
  - kzrdude 6y ago
    Is the consumption pattern different? Less disposable income? No prevalence of credit cards? Is this really a noticeable effect/difference?
    - buran77 6y ago
      Apple machines were never really that popular in Europe because they weren't marketed as intensively as in the US. Schools and companies were never equipped with them unless we're talking about video/graphics people. And half of Europe was not considering such expensive purchases until well into the '90s, perhaps even later. By then Windows was already skyrocketing, regular PCs were cheaper, and very few customers were invested in the Apple ecosystem enough (or at all) to push them towards Macs. If anything I imagine Apple machines are taking their 5% market share in the US more from the Linux segment than Windows.
      - kzrdude 6y ago
        This doesn't make so much sense to me, at universities I've seen a ton of Apple laptops among students and professors. Clearly they broke through there.
close04 6y ago
> but the market is much smaller How do you figure that? Statistics just say Linux has just over 2% market share in Europe [0], ~1.74% in the US [1], and ~1.5% in North America. Apple has a 30% higher market share in NA than in Europe. ChromeOS has a ~5 times higher market share in NA. This goes out of everyone else's market share. The EU alone is ~450 million citizens, ~30% higher than the US. Europe has ~750 million citizens, ~50% more than North America. Any reason to suspect that despite the higher population and the higher market share within that, there are still substantially fewer Linux users in Europe? And if so, what are the actual numbers of end users for each? You'd have to assume the "desktop market" is more than 3 times lower in Europe vs. NA to conclude that there are fewer Linux user in Europe. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/europe https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/europe [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st... [2] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/north-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/north-ame...
- kick 6y ago
  Linux users does not equal people able/willing to order overpriced high-end laptops. Most of the EU is significantly more poor than the US, and you have to consider spending power when thinking about market size. To quote a previous comment on this topic in a recent thread, though with a country not presently in the EU (but still the country with the second-highest GDP in Europe): One example: The UK is a reasonably wealthy country. Median household income in the UK is 29,400 GBP (36,000 USD). The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) has a median household income around 43,000 USD
  - close04 6y ago
    You brought up population, GDP, average income, etc. None of these explicitly support your claim, half of them actually work against it. I gave you actual numbers for Linux usage and they do not support your assertion. I would have appreciated the same from you given that you are absolutely sure.
    - 6y ago

by kick 6y ago

enriquto 6y ago

> the market is much smaller How so? The population of Europe is about double the population of the USA. Even if you narrow it down to the european union, it is still larger than the USA. Why should the market for laptops be smaller in Europe? Are you sure?

layer8 6y ago
Country-specific keyboards may be s factor.
- bjoli 6y ago
  Probably not. Most european keyboards are just differenr caps on the iso layout. Modern keyboards in the western world are usually ANSI or iso, and I believe there are one or two prominent layouts used in Asian countries. I have never understood why the ANSI layout is popular. The compromises of the iso layout to cram the extra keys in are hardly noticeable apart from the right pinky if you touch type. The key caps are different, of course, but that can't be very expensive.
kick 6y ago
I'm absolutely sure, yes, especially if we're talking about the EU alone (but I'd prefer to argue for Europe as a whole), that the market for high-end laptops is significantly smaller. Eastern Europe is an order of magnitude poorer, and is the reason Europe's population is higher than the USA's (that said, there is a reason I initiated with "America"; these customizations are also offered in Canada, and North America is conventionally considered a single market). Especially when considering localizations that have to be made, and that the most valuable European countries require you get physical technical goods certified per-country (mainly looking at Germany here), and that they're getting taxed more, the margin that you can get from Europe is much smaller already than in America. It doesn't make sense to offer the same extent of customization (which, too, lessens margin) as in America.
- james-mcelwain 6y ago
  Was curious so looked this up -- the North American market is bigger than the EU by ~50 million people.
  - kick 6y ago
    It's even more apparent when you compare them by GDP.
  - dubcanada 6y ago
    Canada doesn't have Lenovo with Linux preinstalled (only Windows & Chrome OS) on their product list. I would assume Mexico and the other islands are also excluded. So it's really only US vs EU.
    - kick 6y ago
      It seems like it's changed from about two years ago; really strange.
  - close04 6y ago
    Then again the North American market is ~500 million, the European market is ~750 million. Also the current statistics (I linked to them in a comment below) suggest Linux usage in North America at ~1.5%, and in Europe at ~2%. This suggests higher usage in Europe.
- ascar 6y ago
  US plus Canada is just 23% larger than EU by GDP [1]. Based on PPP it's 20% [2]. Considering we are talking about ~20 trillion in GDP and very similar PPP, that hardly seems to be a large enough difference to give your "absolute sure" statement merit. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
  - kick 6y ago
Shorel 6y ago
Because Europeans don't buy the latest MacBook every year. A laptop lasting 4 years is perfectly reasonable in Europe. I agree with you about the population, but that is not the whole picture.
- kzrdude 6y ago
  Is the consumption pattern different? Less disposable income? No prevalence of credit cards? Is this really a noticeable effect/difference?
  - buran77 6y ago
    Apple machines were never really that popular in Europe because they weren't marketed as intensively as in the US. Schools and companies were never equipped with them unless we're talking about video/graphics people. And half of Europe was not considering such expensive purchases until well into the '90s, perhaps even later. By then Windows was already skyrocketing, regular PCs were cheaper, and very few customers were invested in the Apple ecosystem enough (or at all) to push them towards Macs. If anything I imagine Apple machines are taking their 5% market share in the US more from the Linux segment than Windows.
    - kzrdude 6y ago
      This doesn't make so much sense to me, at universities I've seen a ton of Apple laptops among students and professors. Clearly they broke through there.

close04 6y ago

> but the market is much smaller How do you figure that? Statistics just say Linux has just over 2% market share in Europe [0], ~1.74% in the US [1], and ~1.5% in North America. Apple has a 30% higher market share in NA than in Europe. ChromeOS has a ~5 times higher market share in NA. This goes out of everyone else's market share. The EU alone is ~450 million citizens, ~30% higher than the US. Europe has ~750 million citizens, ~50% more than North America. Any reason to suspect that despite the higher population and the higher market share within that, there are still substantially fewer Linux users in Europe? And if so, what are the actual numbers of end users for each? You'd have to assume the "desktop market" is more than 3 times lower in Europe vs. NA to conclude that there are fewer Linux user in Europe. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/europe https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/europe [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st... [2] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/north-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/north-ame...

kick 6y ago
Linux users does not equal people able/willing to order overpriced high-end laptops. Most of the EU is significantly more poor than the US, and you have to consider spending power when thinking about market size. To quote a previous comment on this topic in a recent thread, though with a country not presently in the EU (but still the country with the second-highest GDP in Europe): One example: The UK is a reasonably wealthy country. Median household income in the UK is 29,400 GBP (36,000 USD). The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) has a median household income around 43,000 USD
- close04 6y ago
  You brought up population, GDP, average income, etc. None of these explicitly support your claim, half of them actually work against it. I gave you actual numbers for Linux usage and they do not support your assertion. I would have appreciated the same from you given that you are absolutely sure.
  - 6y ago