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Potentially very unpopular opinion, but to add to this, I think it’s irresponsible and unfair to the children if you choose to have have kids before your financ

Potentially very unpopular opinion, but to add to this, I think it’s irresponsible and unfair to the children if you choose to have have kids before your finances are in order. And selfish to put your desires above the wellbeing of the potential child’s.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
We're talking in the thread about bad luck. It's entirely possible - and common - to have finances in order, decide to have children, and then experience sudden events causing financial hardships. Also, we're in a subthread of "saving lots o'moneys by working for big tech", so this applies also to people wanting to improve your situation. I personally didn't realize how bad the calculus of chasing after companies in tech hubs looks until I started doing costs-of-living calculations while evaluating job offers with relocation. I ended up doubling down on remote, because even a moderately shit tech job (even a in-office one where I live) would leave us with more savings on a single income than us relocating to a big tech hub and living on two incomes (one non-tech).
- dkersten 7y ago
  I didn’t say I had anything against anybody who has kids and falls on hard times. I understand that makes my comment rather off topic in this thread. I do know a lot of people who definitely did not have their finances in order and decided to have children anyway. The children are the ones who suffer most in these cases! This is super irresponsible and selfish. Hell, I once knew a couple who literally said they might have a third child because it would be easier with the extra child support money...
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Here I agree with you in principle - deciding to have a child while not being able to financially support it, and just hoping for the best, is extremely irresponsible and likely to permanently scar a new human being. That said, before judging a struggling family, there are also some other things to consider: - Pregnancies happen by accident. It's both easier and harder to conceive a child than people think. It can and does happen by accident even with multiple methods of birth control applied, and at the same time a couple can try to have a kid and not succeed for years (or at all). - Your job can disappear suddenly and through no fault of your own. I had this situation in the past, where my coworkers and I didn't know that there was a hostile takeover of the company happening for almost a year before it run out of money and stopped paying us. - Random events (family problems, illness, or a pandemic shutting down the global economy) can suddenly break your finances while a child is underway. - People miscalculate. - The drive to procreate is, in general, one of the strongest forces in all living organisms, and thus very hard to control - especially with abstract considerations like numbers on the screen symbolizing your chances of survival. > Hell, I once knew a couple who literally said they might have a third child because it would be easier with the extra child support money... Can't speak about that particular couple, but in general, that's economic reality. I've seen such things too (hell, my wife and I sometimes joke that we should try for two or for four, because there's little difference between three and four kids, and having a fourth gives guaranteed retirement from the government). Sometimes benefits are set up this way on purpose, by countries that want to improve their population growth.
    - dkersten 7y ago
      I mean, I'm not going to campaign to put any actual restrictions or laws in place and I don't go around judging people or complaining or whatever. But I do think that people shouldn't have children unless they are able to take good care of them, and financial stability is part of that. I guess my complaint is that many time people don't think of consequences or plan for the future and then other people (their children in this case) are the ones to suffer.
- esoterica 7y ago
  > I personally didn't realize how bad the calculus of chasing after companies in tech hubs looks until I started doing costs-of-living calculations while evaluating job offers with relocation. Your mistake was waiting until mid-career to try to pivot to a higher paying job in a HCOL area, because then you'll be 10+ years behind your peers. If you start your career in a HCOL area it's not unfeasible to reach 400k+ by your 30s, at which point you can afford a family even in San Francisco if you wanted one. It's also much easier to find a higher income spouse in a HCOL area, which helps the math too.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I've made plenty of mistakes in my career, though arguably, I've never been in this for the money. What you describe is probably near-optimal from financial point of view, but I can't imagine my younger self being capable of seriously considering such thought process.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

We're talking in the thread about bad luck. It's entirely possible - and common - to have finances in order, decide to have children, and then experience sudden events causing financial hardships. Also, we're in a subthread of "saving lots o'moneys by working for big tech", so this applies also to people wanting to improve your situation. I personally didn't realize how bad the calculus of chasing after companies in tech hubs looks until I started doing costs-of-living calculations while evaluating job offers with relocation. I ended up doubling down on remote, because even a moderately shit tech job (even a in-office one where I live) would leave us with more savings on a single income than us relocating to a big tech hub and living on two incomes (one non-tech).

dkersten 7y ago
I didn’t say I had anything against anybody who has kids and falls on hard times. I understand that makes my comment rather off topic in this thread. I do know a lot of people who definitely did not have their finances in order and decided to have children anyway. The children are the ones who suffer most in these cases! This is super irresponsible and selfish. Hell, I once knew a couple who literally said they might have a third child because it would be easier with the extra child support money...
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Here I agree with you in principle - deciding to have a child while not being able to financially support it, and just hoping for the best, is extremely irresponsible and likely to permanently scar a new human being. That said, before judging a struggling family, there are also some other things to consider: - Pregnancies happen by accident. It's both easier and harder to conceive a child than people think. It can and does happen by accident even with multiple methods of birth control applied, and at the same time a couple can try to have a kid and not succeed for years (or at all). - Your job can disappear suddenly and through no fault of your own. I had this situation in the past, where my coworkers and I didn't know that there was a hostile takeover of the company happening for almost a year before it run out of money and stopped paying us. - Random events (family problems, illness, or a pandemic shutting down the global economy) can suddenly break your finances while a child is underway. - People miscalculate. - The drive to procreate is, in general, one of the strongest forces in all living organisms, and thus very hard to control - especially with abstract considerations like numbers on the screen symbolizing your chances of survival. > Hell, I once knew a couple who literally said they might have a third child because it would be easier with the extra child support money... Can't speak about that particular couple, but in general, that's economic reality. I've seen such things too (hell, my wife and I sometimes joke that we should try for two or for four, because there's little difference between three and four kids, and having a fourth gives guaranteed retirement from the government). Sometimes benefits are set up this way on purpose, by countries that want to improve their population growth.
  - dkersten 7y ago
    I mean, I'm not going to campaign to put any actual restrictions or laws in place and I don't go around judging people or complaining or whatever. But I do think that people shouldn't have children unless they are able to take good care of them, and financial stability is part of that. I guess my complaint is that many time people don't think of consequences or plan for the future and then other people (their children in this case) are the ones to suffer.
esoterica 7y ago
> I personally didn't realize how bad the calculus of chasing after companies in tech hubs looks until I started doing costs-of-living calculations while evaluating job offers with relocation. Your mistake was waiting until mid-career to try to pivot to a higher paying job in a HCOL area, because then you'll be 10+ years behind your peers. If you start your career in a HCOL area it's not unfeasible to reach 400k+ by your 30s, at which point you can afford a family even in San Francisco if you wanted one. It's also much easier to find a higher income spouse in a HCOL area, which helps the math too.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I've made plenty of mistakes in my career, though arguably, I've never been in this for the money. What you describe is probably near-optimal from financial point of view, but I can't imagine my younger self being capable of seriously considering such thought process.