3 ms·

> life just isn't a very deep thing Surely life is the most profound and magical thing you will ever experience?

by cammil 6y ago

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
'surely'? - how does one justify saying that? 'profound' - what does that even mean in this context? 'magical' - Speak for yourself. Me & my brothers had our lives destroyed by appalling parents. It's not something you recover from. You don't speak for everybody. Don't try.
- Arbalest 6y ago
  I guess 'surely' technically qualifies as you do not have anything to compare it to. But because of that, describing it in any quantity can only be guesswork. Edit: that is to say, you only have one life, and comparing the whole to individual parts doesn't really make sense.
- boomlinde 6y ago
  It's true by definition (of "your life" as the time during which you can at all experience things). In that sense it doesn't matter how profound and magical your life has been or will be; it's still the most profound and magical thing you'll ever experience.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    There have been large parts of my life where I would have been better off dead. I didn't choose suicide at those times, and I've always wondered if I made the right decision not to. Life these days is... tolerable. There is nothing 'magical' about a daily grind of loneliness and (until recently) nearly two decades of pain and isolation caused by mental illness caused by two people who should never have been allowed to breed. I know this isn't really good form under HN rules, but: fuck you.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - throaway_pdp11 6y ago
      I feel the same way. But then it is kind of crazy to me that I am the result of a biological process that's millions of years old, and the untold suffering of that process no doubt dwarfs my own. My immediate circumstances are similar to yours, I've made two attempts on my life, the most recent one being three weeks ago after being isolated in lockdown for a month. A&E were called and the paramedics were in full hazmat, I felt guilty for wasting their time and resources. I don't really know if I will survive this to be honest, I know that despite the loneliness and suffering there are things that really make my life worthwhile, but then at the same time other thoughts will interrupt and tell me to end it. Modern life can be really lonely, and sometimes it's hard to look around and see all the successful and beautiful people together while you are left alone, but we also have more freedom than our ancestors, more that we can do, we can travel the world if we choose to, there are things to live for it's just that sometimes it's hard to see clearly. Sorry if this is a bit incoherent... I hope this helps and maybe things will improve for you
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Yeah, my head has been fixing itself recently after about 3 really nasty years (on top of all else) and now this... I can feel my mind starting to fray again. I don't like it either. I can cope for now but I can't suggest anything to help you. Truth is I never can because each person's mental situation is different. I'm sorry. I do wish you luck. I wish I could do more.
        throaway_pdp11 6y ago
        You too, take care
- kidintech 6y ago
  surely this has got to be the edgiest comment on HN. > 'surely'? - how does one justify saying that? life is the superset of all possible experiences. If any element has a property (i.e. is deep) it will be contained within life. I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from your tragedy, but we are discussing semantics. Life can be "not very deep" and still be the deepest thing in existence, by definition.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fapjacks 6y ago
    But then by definition it is also necessarily ("surely") the least "profound" and "magical" thing anyone ever experiences.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    My plaint is really about semantics. So let's discuss that, especially as you mentioned it. Also let's be clear: this is about clarity and good use of language. I don't like sloppy use of English in any context. Clarity matters. I'll try to leave out my life experiences except where relevant. I suppose we have to start with that. The original comment I was replying to said life was great (I summarise). Without qualification it covered everyone's lives (mathematically it was implicitly universally quantified), and said life is great. No it's not, not universally, and it can be quite the opposite. In many cases yes it's lovely (or I hope so!) but you cannot speak for everybody. Therefore, don't. Further, if you talk about existence ("Surely life is the most...") then you cover animal's lives. Do they have magical and profound existences? Point is not to answer that but to say be careful what you drag in with lax pronouncements. I'll not take the animal thing further. So, 'profound' - I asked what this means and have not got a reply. This is about semantics, so what are the semantics of this word, in this context? I literally do not know. Words like this are too easily used without thought. There's nothing profound (I assume defined as having hidden depths or meanings) for me about waking up in the morning, going to work etc. It's just life. If you break it down this way I suspect most people would say the same. The phrase The Daily Grind is a bit cynical and used thoughtlessly too, but it suggests another side to the coin. So what does 'profound' mean here, and is it justified. It needn't be a complex or long answer, but if words matter, this matters. OK, 'magical'. If you're american (I'm a brit) this kind of pretty but ultimately empty (or at least ill-defined) word gets broadcast at you from an early age by disney. It just gets parroted back. When I hear more disney turds about how Precious Family Is, ruthlessly equating family with something wonderful (which I assume it often is, I hope so!) then I tend to well up with either disgust or dry, bitter cackling laughter. I probably sound like macbeth's witches. That's not about semantics so much as using words properly, to mean something. I've read some philosophy that is just a tangle of words because the writer is not clear themselves on how to justify a thing and are really trying to fog things up like a squid with its ink (conversely I picked up a book by some philosopher and it was wonderfully clear. You might not agree but at least you could get exactly what he was saying, and with that comprehension, you could agree or not, but at least you knew why). All I'm asking for is clear, thoughtful and justified use of words to clearly express ideas. I guess this is the basics of philosophy, so it's relevant especially here.
- cammil 6y ago
  Your interpretation of my comment seems to me to have taken my meaning in a way I did not intend it. I don't want to argue your points because I was not making a statement in the mathematical sense, nor academic philosophical sense. The point really is that it is a question, that you can ask yourself. Whether you immediately conclude that the answer is "certainly not" does not deny the question of being asked. "Surely" is simply there to suggest my opinion on the matter, not a demand that I am correct. Edit - I can't resist: My own life is not without misery. My history still troubles me to this day. I feel possibly a similar grievance to my upbringings as you do. That is not to say there is something interesting about "life". The seemingly unfathomable nature of it, is to me a wonder. It's magical in the sense I have absolutely no idea how it works, but it definitely seems to exist. Biblical Hell of course would not be excluded by this definition. I am not making any mathematical arguments, my comment is just an attempt to summarise my feelings in this regard. Btw, if my comment angered you then I apologize.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    All I was bleating about was precision of speech. In a formal or semiformal context, I'm not going to care about semantic accuracy down the pub (wait a minute, what effing pub? They're all closed. Dammit, this sucks, it really does). Precision and meaning matters when debating IMO, as I've outlined elsewhere on this thread, that's all I'm getting at. Lack of it causes lots of problems, beyond random guys exploding at you on the interwebs. Don't worry about offending me, you hit a very exposed nerve by accident, wasn't the first time. No probs.

> life just isn't a very deep thing Surely life is the most profound and magical thing you will ever experience?

by cammil 6y ago

> life just isn't a very deep thing Surely life is the most profound and magical thing you will ever experience?

'surely'? - how does one justify saying that? 'profound' - what does that even mean in this context? 'magical' - Speak for yourself. Me & my brothers had our lives destroyed by appalling parents. It's not something you recover from. You don't speak for everybody. Don't try.

Arbalest 6y ago
I guess 'surely' technically qualifies as you do not have anything to compare it to. But because of that, describing it in any quantity can only be guesswork. Edit: that is to say, you only have one life, and comparing the whole to individual parts doesn't really make sense.
boomlinde 6y ago
It's true by definition (of "your life" as the time during which you can at all experience things). In that sense it doesn't matter how profound and magical your life has been or will be; it's still the most profound and magical thing you'll ever experience.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  There have been large parts of my life where I would have been better off dead. I didn't choose suicide at those times, and I've always wondered if I made the right decision not to. Life these days is... tolerable. There is nothing 'magical' about a daily grind of loneliness and (until recently) nearly two decades of pain and isolation caused by mental illness caused by two people who should never have been allowed to breed. I know this isn't really good form under HN rules, but: fuck you.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throaway_pdp11 6y ago
    I feel the same way. But then it is kind of crazy to me that I am the result of a biological process that's millions of years old, and the untold suffering of that process no doubt dwarfs my own. My immediate circumstances are similar to yours, I've made two attempts on my life, the most recent one being three weeks ago after being isolated in lockdown for a month. A&E were called and the paramedics were in full hazmat, I felt guilty for wasting their time and resources. I don't really know if I will survive this to be honest, I know that despite the loneliness and suffering there are things that really make my life worthwhile, but then at the same time other thoughts will interrupt and tell me to end it. Modern life can be really lonely, and sometimes it's hard to look around and see all the successful and beautiful people together while you are left alone, but we also have more freedom than our ancestors, more that we can do, we can travel the world if we choose to, there are things to live for it's just that sometimes it's hard to see clearly. Sorry if this is a bit incoherent... I hope this helps and maybe things will improve for you
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Yeah, my head has been fixing itself recently after about 3 really nasty years (on top of all else) and now this... I can feel my mind starting to fray again. I don't like it either. I can cope for now but I can't suggest anything to help you. Truth is I never can because each person's mental situation is different. I'm sorry. I do wish you luck. I wish I could do more.
      - throaway_pdp11 6y ago
        You too, take care
kidintech 6y ago
surely this has got to be the edgiest comment on HN. > 'surely'? - how does one justify saying that? life is the superset of all possible experiences. If any element has a property (i.e. is deep) it will be contained within life. I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from your tragedy, but we are discussing semantics. Life can be "not very deep" and still be the deepest thing in existence, by definition.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fapjacks 6y ago
  But then by definition it is also necessarily ("surely") the least "profound" and "magical" thing anyone ever experiences.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  My plaint is really about semantics. So let's discuss that, especially as you mentioned it. Also let's be clear: this is about clarity and good use of language. I don't like sloppy use of English in any context. Clarity matters. I'll try to leave out my life experiences except where relevant. I suppose we have to start with that. The original comment I was replying to said life was great (I summarise). Without qualification it covered everyone's lives (mathematically it was implicitly universally quantified), and said life is great. No it's not, not universally, and it can be quite the opposite. In many cases yes it's lovely (or I hope so!) but you cannot speak for everybody. Therefore, don't. Further, if you talk about existence ("Surely life is the most...") then you cover animal's lives. Do they have magical and profound existences? Point is not to answer that but to say be careful what you drag in with lax pronouncements. I'll not take the animal thing further. So, 'profound' - I asked what this means and have not got a reply. This is about semantics, so what are the semantics of this word, in this context? I literally do not know. Words like this are too easily used without thought. There's nothing profound (I assume defined as having hidden depths or meanings) for me about waking up in the morning, going to work etc. It's just life. If you break it down this way I suspect most people would say the same. The phrase The Daily Grind is a bit cynical and used thoughtlessly too, but it suggests another side to the coin. So what does 'profound' mean here, and is it justified. It needn't be a complex or long answer, but if words matter, this matters. OK, 'magical'. If you're american (I'm a brit) this kind of pretty but ultimately empty (or at least ill-defined) word gets broadcast at you from an early age by disney. It just gets parroted back. When I hear more disney turds about how Precious Family Is, ruthlessly equating family with something wonderful (which I assume it often is, I hope so!) then I tend to well up with either disgust or dry, bitter cackling laughter. I probably sound like macbeth's witches. That's not about semantics so much as using words properly, to mean something. I've read some philosophy that is just a tangle of words because the writer is not clear themselves on how to justify a thing and are really trying to fog things up like a squid with its ink (conversely I picked up a book by some philosopher and it was wonderfully clear. You might not agree but at least you could get exactly what he was saying, and with that comprehension, you could agree or not, but at least you knew why). All I'm asking for is clear, thoughtful and justified use of words to clearly express ideas. I guess this is the basics of philosophy, so it's relevant especially here.
cammil 6y ago
Your interpretation of my comment seems to me to have taken my meaning in a way I did not intend it. I don't want to argue your points because I was not making a statement in the mathematical sense, nor academic philosophical sense. The point really is that it is a question, that you can ask yourself. Whether you immediately conclude that the answer is "certainly not" does not deny the question of being asked. "Surely" is simply there to suggest my opinion on the matter, not a demand that I am correct. Edit - I can't resist: My own life is not without misery. My history still troubles me to this day. I feel possibly a similar grievance to my upbringings as you do. That is not to say there is something interesting about "life". The seemingly unfathomable nature of it, is to me a wonder. It's magical in the sense I have absolutely no idea how it works, but it definitely seems to exist. Biblical Hell of course would not be excluded by this definition. I am not making any mathematical arguments, my comment is just an attempt to summarise my feelings in this regard. Btw, if my comment angered you then I apologize.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  All I was bleating about was precision of speech. In a formal or semiformal context, I'm not going to care about semantic accuracy down the pub (wait a minute, what effing pub? They're all closed. Dammit, this sucks, it really does). Precision and meaning matters when debating IMO, as I've outlined elsewhere on this thread, that's all I'm getting at. Lack of it causes lots of problems, beyond random guys exploding at you on the interwebs. Don't worry about offending me, you hit a very exposed nerve by accident, wasn't the first time. No probs.