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I have never heard of a plumber, dentist or electrician apologizing for anything - unless you count court orders...

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
And yet my house has never caught fire due to a miswiring or got flooded due to a misplumbing but let me not even count the ways in which software has failed me. Maybe there's a reason you rarely hear one category apologizing and hear the other category coming up with excuses.
- lvturner 6y ago
  Mine has - my plumber didn't apologise, but he did instruct me over the phone how to properly apply PTFE tape.
- stanmancan 6y ago
  Plumbing and electrical doesn’t change all too often. Once you learn the ins and outs it doesn’t change much over your career. Not the case with software development.
  - karatestomp 6y ago
    And when they do change there are very straightforward guides to the changes, when and where you can/should/must use new materials, and so on.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I know people who’ve programmed microcontrollers in C all their lives and still written bugs. It’s not like switching tooling once in a while is the source of bugs.
- jsjw7sbw 6y ago
  Still you insure your house for those things though. I think you are comparing apples with oranges here.
- erikbye 6y ago
  > but let me not even count the ways in which software has failed me. Failed you? This sounds either very entitled or sensational. Has software caused you major grief in any way financial or the loss of limbs or loved ones? While this happens, very few people are affected by bugs in such a way, at least confirmed.
  - Nicksil 6y ago
    >Failed you? This sounds either very entitled or sensational. Has software caused you major grief in any way financial or the loss of limbs or loved ones? While this happens, very few people are affected by bugs in such a way, at least confirmed. Many people have been significantly affected by software bugs. Therac-25[1] is one I constantly remind myself of; it killed 5 people. Here's a list for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs I'm not sure what your definition of "very few people" is but we'd all do well to aim for 0 adversely-affected people as a result from using software we write. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
    - erikbye 6y ago
      Read my reply again, note especially the part "While this happens". Obviously I am acutely aware of what you are saying, no matter how many Wikipedia articles you link, so your comment is not only superfluous but also makes no sense, as I was asking OP if he was personally affected in such a way because he seemed bitter. Your reply does not answer this, and you should let him answer for himself. > I'm not sure what your definition of "very few people" I think my definition is about the same as every accepted definition of "very few", the number of people affected by such bugs falls within this definition, considering how many users software has. > Many people have been significantly affected by software bugs. Therac-25[1] is one I constantly remind myself of; it killed 5 people. 5 does not fit the definition many in anyone's book.
      - a1369209993 6y ago
        > 5 does not fit the definition many in anyone's book. Well, IIRC, there's Watership Down, a literal book, but I assume you meant that figuratively.
- traderjane 6y ago
  Plenty of people are hurt or killed through clerical errors by medical professionals, but you're not going to get anyone admitting that. Even for something simple, if you have any accusation to make in a medical context, it's probably time to evaluate your options and consider a new doctor, and only then make your accusation.
- lukeschlather 6y ago
  The worst thing code I have written ever did was cause a small power outage. But that was a one-time thing, I haven't had the opportunity to write code that even could do that in years.
old-engineer 6y ago
There always will be good and bad craftsmen. I once overheard my electrician demanding the guy installing the alarm system to lay his cables properly.
adrianmonk 6y ago
This is about the dynamic between people within the organization (coworkers, boss, etc.), not about external communication to customers. That is, we aren't talking about whether an individual software engineer should apologize to the customer or the end user. So the analogous question would be whether someone who has worked as a plumber has ever heard a coworker plumber apologize for messing up a job. I'm hoping the answer to that is yes. A plumber apologizing directly to a customer would be more analogous to a company making a public announcement about a bug, which is a different issue than how responsibility is determined within a team.

And yet my house has never caught fire due to a miswiring or got flooded due to a misplumbing but let me not even count the ways in which software has failed me. Maybe there's a reason you rarely hear one category apologizing and hear the other category coming up with excuses.

lvturner 6y ago
Mine has - my plumber didn't apologise, but he did instruct me over the phone how to properly apply PTFE tape.
stanmancan 6y ago
Plumbing and electrical doesn’t change all too often. Once you learn the ins and outs it doesn’t change much over your career. Not the case with software development.
- karatestomp 6y ago
  And when they do change there are very straightforward guides to the changes, when and where you can/should/must use new materials, and so on.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I know people who’ve programmed microcontrollers in C all their lives and still written bugs. It’s not like switching tooling once in a while is the source of bugs.
jsjw7sbw 6y ago
Still you insure your house for those things though. I think you are comparing apples with oranges here.
erikbye 6y ago
> but let me not even count the ways in which software has failed me. Failed you? This sounds either very entitled or sensational. Has software caused you major grief in any way financial or the loss of limbs or loved ones? While this happens, very few people are affected by bugs in such a way, at least confirmed.
- Nicksil 6y ago
  >Failed you? This sounds either very entitled or sensational. Has software caused you major grief in any way financial or the loss of limbs or loved ones? While this happens, very few people are affected by bugs in such a way, at least confirmed. Many people have been significantly affected by software bugs. Therac-25[1] is one I constantly remind myself of; it killed 5 people. Here's a list for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs I'm not sure what your definition of "very few people" is but we'd all do well to aim for 0 adversely-affected people as a result from using software we write. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
  - erikbye 6y ago
    Read my reply again, note especially the part "While this happens". Obviously I am acutely aware of what you are saying, no matter how many Wikipedia articles you link, so your comment is not only superfluous but also makes no sense, as I was asking OP if he was personally affected in such a way because he seemed bitter. Your reply does not answer this, and you should let him answer for himself. > I'm not sure what your definition of "very few people" I think my definition is about the same as every accepted definition of "very few", the number of people affected by such bugs falls within this definition, considering how many users software has. > Many people have been significantly affected by software bugs. Therac-25[1] is one I constantly remind myself of; it killed 5 people. 5 does not fit the definition many in anyone's book.
    - a1369209993 6y ago
      > 5 does not fit the definition many in anyone's book. Well, IIRC, there's Watership Down, a literal book, but I assume you meant that figuratively.
traderjane 6y ago
Plenty of people are hurt or killed through clerical errors by medical professionals, but you're not going to get anyone admitting that. Even for something simple, if you have any accusation to make in a medical context, it's probably time to evaluate your options and consider a new doctor, and only then make your accusation.
lukeschlather 6y ago
The worst thing code I have written ever did was cause a small power outage. But that was a one-time thing, I haven't had the opportunity to write code that even could do that in years.

old-engineer 6y ago

There always will be good and bad craftsmen. I once overheard my electrician demanding the guy installing the alarm system to lay his cables properly.

adrianmonk 6y ago

This is about the dynamic between people within the organization (coworkers, boss, etc.), not about external communication to customers. That is, we aren't talking about whether an individual software engineer should apologize to the customer or the end user. So the analogous question would be whether someone who has worked as a plumber has ever heard a coworker plumber apologize for messing up a job. I'm hoping the answer to that is yes. A plumber apologizing directly to a customer would be more analogous to a company making a public announcement about a bug, which is a different issue than how responsibility is determined within a team.