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I took a “History of Philosophy” class as a GE my freshman year of college. It’s pretty astounding, when you start tracing it back, how much of our law, literat

by ketzo 7y ago

I took a “History of Philosophy” class as a GE my freshman year of college. It’s pretty astounding, when you start tracing it back, how much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics come from, like, four or five Greek guys.

gliese1337 7y ago
From works written down by four or five Greek guys, or by other guys who cited those Greek guys as the source. The fact that our surviving records all happen to funnel through those guys is not proof that it all originated with those guys. It is highly likely that they were both building on an extensive unrecorded philosophical tradition, and participating in a broader contemporary cultural conversation whose other participants have merely not been lucky enough to have their names recorded by history.
- danaos 7y ago
  Counterpoint: Aristotle's life is widely documented, having been born in the small ancient city of Stagira, and famously taught Alexander the Great.
  - mod50ack 7y ago
    We know. And Aristotle was certainly a star of his era. But we also know that Aristotle didn't come up with this all from nothing; he was engaging in a number of disputes with other philosophers of the time. You can see this reflected in his work, where he often gives accounts of what his opponents' theories are as well before offering his rebuttal. In fact, the work of Aristotle is one of the better sources we have for views of philosophers whose writings are largely lost.
    - pyuser583 7y ago
      Which ironic, because his actual works are almost entirely lost.
- achillesheels 7y ago
  Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle unoriginal? Enlightenment Europe is similarly the work done by a handful of geniuses participating in an intellectual culture. We can patently see their originality - what makes you so sure the Greeks did not have the same?
  - gliese1337 7y ago
    Nothing. I am not saying they weren't geniuses. I am merely pointing out that there is insufficient evidence for a definite conclusion either way. Cf. Shakespeare. Yes, he was a genius, but not nearly so much of a genius as many people often claim, because a lot of people confuse "Shakespeare is our earliest surviving recorded source for a lot of features of the English language" for "Shakespeare single-handedly invented half of the English language", which is absurd. And the great minds of the European Enlightenment may also have been genuinely great... but they are also nearly all rich men with patrons and leisure time, and the means to preserve their thoughts in writing. Our view on their history is much clearer than our view of the ancient Greeks, but there's still no telling exactly how much influence there was from their surrounding unrecorded culture, or how many important ideas would've been independently proposed by others if others had the same access to publication and historical preservation.
    - achillesheels 7y ago
      There is a very clear heritage of the ideas of those Ancient Greek thinkers which have moved and influence world history. So I'm befuddled how you don't see sufficient evidence, nor what constitutes such sufficiency for genius? I highly recommend you read Arthur Schopenhauer's essay On Philosophy at the Universities: https://archive.org/stream/23341891SchopenhauerParergaAndParalipomenaV2/23341915-Schopenhauer-Parerga-and-Paralipomena-V-1 https://archive.org/stream/23341891SchopenhauerParergaAndPar... It is a persuasive essay that, no matter the resources, genuine philosophers or geniuses pursue the truth for its very sake. I concur that historically this has been the art of the aristocracy, but so what? Hypothetical or "unrewarded genius" doesn't amount to much in world history. Results do. And such fruit is actually the result of a cohesive organization of a society, ie genius is the goal of civilization proper. Plato and Descartes both had to have their trash picked up by somebody in order for them to impact us today.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
Ancient Greece is considered the cradle of european civilization for a reason. But I wouldn't go so far as to say much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics comes from them. Certainly, we borrowed a lot of words and ancient greece laid the foundations for modern society but most of what we have today doesn't come from ancient greece. Ancient greece contributed to architecture but I wouldn't say most of our architecture today comes from ancient greece. Ancient greece didn't have skyscrapers. The greeks gave us the foundations of mathematics but most mathematics we have today do not come from the greeks. This goes for ethics ( we don't force people to take hemlock ), literature, politics ( don't own slaves ), aesthetics, etc. If anything, the thinkers of the enlightenment probably influenced modern society the most. But of course, they themselves were influenced by the ancient greeks, romans, etc.
throw0101a 7y ago
> It’s pretty astounding It's not astounding at all: the (Catholic) Church very much absorbed quite a lot of Aristotle's meta-physics. He was simply called "The Philosopher" in many writings. And given that "Western values" are basically Christian values: * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-making-western-mind-tom-holland-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-makin... * https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ it's no surprise then that you can draw a straight line from the Ancient Greeks to the modern day.
HPsquared 7y ago
That's what I call a high "impact factor"!
Scapeghost 7y ago
> how much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics come from, like, four or five Greek guys. I always wondered what the world would have been like if these people got fervent followers and governed nations/cultures instead of the religious "prophets"

by ketzo 7y ago

gliese1337 7y ago

From works written down by four or five Greek guys, or by other guys who cited those Greek guys as the source. The fact that our surviving records all happen to funnel through those guys is not proof that it all originated with those guys. It is highly likely that they were both building on an extensive unrecorded philosophical tradition, and participating in a broader contemporary cultural conversation whose other participants have merely not been lucky enough to have their names recorded by history.

danaos 7y ago
Counterpoint: Aristotle's life is widely documented, having been born in the small ancient city of Stagira, and famously taught Alexander the Great.
- mod50ack 7y ago
  We know. And Aristotle was certainly a star of his era. But we also know that Aristotle didn't come up with this all from nothing; he was engaging in a number of disputes with other philosophers of the time. You can see this reflected in his work, where he often gives accounts of what his opponents' theories are as well before offering his rebuttal. In fact, the work of Aristotle is one of the better sources we have for views of philosophers whose writings are largely lost.
  - pyuser583 7y ago
    Which ironic, because his actual works are almost entirely lost.
achillesheels 7y ago
Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle unoriginal? Enlightenment Europe is similarly the work done by a handful of geniuses participating in an intellectual culture. We can patently see their originality - what makes you so sure the Greeks did not have the same?
- gliese1337 7y ago
  Nothing. I am not saying they weren't geniuses. I am merely pointing out that there is insufficient evidence for a definite conclusion either way. Cf. Shakespeare. Yes, he was a genius, but not nearly so much of a genius as many people often claim, because a lot of people confuse "Shakespeare is our earliest surviving recorded source for a lot of features of the English language" for "Shakespeare single-handedly invented half of the English language", which is absurd. And the great minds of the European Enlightenment may also have been genuinely great... but they are also nearly all rich men with patrons and leisure time, and the means to preserve their thoughts in writing. Our view on their history is much clearer than our view of the ancient Greeks, but there's still no telling exactly how much influence there was from their surrounding unrecorded culture, or how many important ideas would've been independently proposed by others if others had the same access to publication and historical preservation.
  - achillesheels 7y ago
    There is a very clear heritage of the ideas of those Ancient Greek thinkers which have moved and influence world history. So I'm befuddled how you don't see sufficient evidence, nor what constitutes such sufficiency for genius? I highly recommend you read Arthur Schopenhauer's essay On Philosophy at the Universities: https://archive.org/stream/23341891SchopenhauerParergaAndParalipomenaV2/23341915-Schopenhauer-Parerga-and-Paralipomena-V-1 https://archive.org/stream/23341891SchopenhauerParergaAndPar... It is a persuasive essay that, no matter the resources, genuine philosophers or geniuses pursue the truth for its very sake. I concur that historically this has been the art of the aristocracy, but so what? Hypothetical or "unrewarded genius" doesn't amount to much in world history. Results do. And such fruit is actually the result of a cohesive organization of a society, ie genius is the goal of civilization proper. Plato and Descartes both had to have their trash picked up by somebody in order for them to impact us today.

dntbnmpls 7y ago

Ancient Greece is considered the cradle of european civilization for a reason. But I wouldn't go so far as to say much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics comes from them. Certainly, we borrowed a lot of words and ancient greece laid the foundations for modern society but most of what we have today doesn't come from ancient greece. Ancient greece contributed to architecture but I wouldn't say most of our architecture today comes from ancient greece. Ancient greece didn't have skyscrapers. The greeks gave us the foundations of mathematics but most mathematics we have today do not come from the greeks. This goes for ethics ( we don't force people to take hemlock ), literature, politics ( don't own slaves ), aesthetics, etc. If anything, the thinkers of the enlightenment probably influenced modern society the most. But of course, they themselves were influenced by the ancient greeks, romans, etc.

throw0101a 7y ago

> It’s pretty astounding It's not astounding at all: the (Catholic) Church very much absorbed quite a lot of Aristotle's meta-physics. He was simply called "The Philosopher" in many writings. And given that "Western values" are basically Christian values: * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-making-western-mind-tom-holland-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-makin... * https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ it's no surprise then that you can draw a straight line from the Ancient Greeks to the modern day.

HPsquared 7y ago

That's what I call a high "impact factor"!

Scapeghost 7y ago

> how much of our law, literature, politics, ethics, and aesthetics come from, like, four or five Greek guys. I always wondered what the world would have been like if these people got fervent followers and governed nations/cultures instead of the religious "prophets"