4 ms·

This is further regression from UI consistency, with no supervision, now on Desktop. Every javascript developer has their own way of doing UI, often a hodgepodg

This is further regression from UI consistency, with no supervision, now on Desktop. Every javascript developer has their own way of doing UI, often a hodgepodge of framework libraries mashed up to make it work. IMO, the entire world has regressed into chaos when it comes to design and UI. Democratic design choices and process is far inferior to dictatorial approach we had going in 90's and into 2000's (See 98.css recently posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22940564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22940564). Let everyone run loose and we all lose. Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI elements but those apps provide a fantastic, consistent UI experience. In addition, the entire Javascript ecosystem is rotten with horrible bloat built atop more bloat by many inexperienced software engineers - sorry, I don't meant to insult anyone but this is a factual observation from my own experience of developing on React and Angular. When a website that's serving trivial content is hogging so much CPU, it is time to refactor everything. It is actually time to refactor what we see as a modern browser.

jamil7 7y ago
> Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI I actually think it’s getting easier. Android and iOS are both offering quick, modern ways of building UIs with there upcoming UI frameworks thats IMO far less work than the web where things have to often be built from scratch or from some third party that will abandon it.
- oaiey 7y ago
  I think the issue is the following: In the 90s there was exactly two vendors with reasonable user base and design philosophies (Microsoft and Apple). And even they had a similar behavior. With the advent of web application we ignored it for a while (it is just a window with some strange stuff in it). However, with the mobile platforms (Android, iOS), bootstrap framework and the rise of strict user interface guideline by mega companies (like Google Material Design), the number of UX styles literally exploded. I try to enumerate them, but the web is full of variants. As a dream, we should consolidate to device factors: Desktop, Mobile, Watch and Interactive. But Apple, Microsoft and Google are not on the same page here ;) If they would, magic could happen.
  - fermienrico 7y ago
    Thank you for articulating this better than I can. You've nailed the crux of my concerns.
t0astbread 7y ago
> Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI elements but those apps provide a fantastic, consistent UI experience. That you can't easily hack on (as in "customization"; userscripts and the like), aren't based on standards and have no sort of isolation or permission management. Both ways have their up- and downsides but I think the web is an upgrade. It's not the best possible solution and "native" could be where the web is today but we have it and it's okay. Also, I think the democratization of programming (whether it be UI frameworks or application development or whatever) is probably the best thing to happen to IT. I think we (as in, society) should make it possible for everyone to do whatever they want and a standards-driven (mostly) easy to understand programming model is a good way of providing that possibility for IT.
pier25 7y ago
> In addition, the entire Javascript ecosystem is rotten This is a common problem but it's certainly not the entire ecosystem. Check Preact, Svelte, Mithril, Inferno, etc. Those are very lightweight alternatives to React, Angular, etc. Also with SRR + hydration or SPA with code splitting you can achieve very lightweight apps. I'm working on a Svelte SSR + hydration app right now and on each page I load about 5kB of JavaScript, some as low as 2kB. See this repo for an example on how to set this up with Rollup and a Node server: https://github.com/PierBover/svelte-ssr-example https://github.com/PierBover/svelte-ssr-example

jamil7 7y ago

> Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI I actually think it’s getting easier. Android and iOS are both offering quick, modern ways of building UIs with there upcoming UI frameworks thats IMO far less work than the web where things have to often be built from scratch or from some third party that will abandon it.

oaiey 7y ago
I think the issue is the following: In the 90s there was exactly two vendors with reasonable user base and design philosophies (Microsoft and Apple). And even they had a similar behavior. With the advent of web application we ignored it for a while (it is just a window with some strange stuff in it). However, with the mobile platforms (Android, iOS), bootstrap framework and the rise of strict user interface guideline by mega companies (like Google Material Design), the number of UX styles literally exploded. I try to enumerate them, but the web is full of variants. As a dream, we should consolidate to device factors: Desktop, Mobile, Watch and Interactive. But Apple, Microsoft and Google are not on the same page here ;) If they would, magic could happen.
- fermienrico 7y ago
  Thank you for articulating this better than I can. You've nailed the crux of my concerns.

t0astbread 7y ago

> Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI elements but those apps provide a fantastic, consistent UI experience. That you can't easily hack on (as in "customization"; userscripts and the like), aren't based on standards and have no sort of isolation or permission management. Both ways have their up- and downsides but I think the web is an upgrade. It's not the best possible solution and "native" could be where the web is today but we have it and it's okay. Also, I think the democratization of programming (whether it be UI frameworks or application development or whatever) is probably the best thing to happen to IT. I think we (as in, society) should make it possible for everyone to do whatever they want and a standards-driven (mostly) easy to understand programming model is a good way of providing that possibility for IT.

pier25 7y ago

> In addition, the entire Javascript ecosystem is rotten This is a common problem but it's certainly not the entire ecosystem. Check Preact, Svelte, Mithril, Inferno, etc. Those are very lightweight alternatives to React, Angular, etc. Also with SRR + hydration or SPA with code splitting you can achieve very lightweight apps. I'm working on a Svelte SSR + hydration app right now and on each page I load about 5kB of JavaScript, some as low as 2kB. See this repo for an example on how to set this up with Rollup and a Node server: https://github.com/PierBover/svelte-ssr-example https://github.com/PierBover/svelte-ssr-example