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We...don’t actually. The NIH started phasing chimp research out in 2013 and USFWS declared them endangered (and thus off-limits for anything invasive or distre

We...don’t actually. The NIH started phasing chimp research out in 2013 and USFWS declared them endangered (and thus off-limits for anything invasive or distressing) in 2015. Great apes can be used for observational studies (like kids), but I think even drawing blood for non-vet reasons is now pretty regulated. Other primates, especially rhesus monkeys and, increasingly, marmosets, are important model animals for lab experiments but are less closely related to humans. Sources for the down voters: https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/timeline-nihs-decision-end-use-chimpanzees-research https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statem...

Ensorceled 7y ago
You’re being downvoted for utterly missing the point.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Care to explain?
  - CardenB 7y ago
    The point is that we use genetically similar test subjects because it is helpful that they are genetically similar. The point was not to demonstrate which exact subspecies of primate that is used.
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      Here's my counterpoint. I do this stuff for a living. I know that primates are a valuable translational model, which is why I've spent the last 15 years working with them in neuroscience labs. On the other hand, I also know that it's an ethically-tricky form of research too[+]. Public support for research depends on people understanding what we're doing and why. Conflating chimps with marmosets (which are still primates, but much less "human-like") or rhesus monkeys risks eroding that support. For example, I'm fine with genetically engineering marmosets; I would have serious misgivings about doing the same thing to generate autistic or Parkinsonian chimps. Therefore, I think this is an important distinction and not being careful about it puts the benefits of primate work--that you're trying to champion!--at risk. [+] For what it's worth, we do take excellent care of them.
      - gridlockd 7y ago
        Still missing the point. The argument against chimps is ethical, not scientific. Chimps would still be better because they are closer.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        Not necessarily. Along with the ethical issues, the Institute of Medicine concluded that it wasn’t scientifically warranted. Data from chimps would be slightly closer to humans, but it’s also hard to get: they are dangerously strong (much more so than macaques, which are already terrifying), grow very slowly, and need tons of care and space—-and therefore money—-to thrive. Those trade offs, made starker by ethical issues, lead them to wind down chimp research. As a tech analogy, writing a browser in assembler is closer” to the hardware and could theoretically result in faster code, but in practice nobody does it because it wouldn’t be worthwhile. Fairly little research is done in monkeys for the same reason. Mice are faster, easier, and offer more tools. This isn’t always a good thing; in fact, my last few projects have made a big deal about the value of a monkey data over rats. Nevertheless, I have zero desire to spin up an ape version.
        gridlockd 7y ago
        > Not necessarily. Absolutely. You have shown remarkable skill at missing the point that the GP was making. The context here is genetic similarity. We (humans) do use chimpanzees for research because of their genetic similarity. The point has nothing to do with any practical considerations besides genetic similarity. They all are irrelevant to the point. To be clear, nobody disagrees with your arguments on why chimps maybe aren't the best research animal. The fact that I have to explain this to you in excruciating detail should make you think about how your brain works. My unsolicited advice: If you don't have an Asperger's diagnosis yet, get one. If you do, put more work into managing in.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        Okay, how’s this? Tell me one major biomedical discovery, not comparative anatomy or physiology, that we learned first or best from chimp research. I have a PhD in this and can’t think of one. I agree that they're very genetically similar to humans. I agree that this, in some ways, would make them a good model organism. Where I disagree is that it's true we productively use(d) chimps in biomedical research for this reason. Instead, I would argue that the limited amount of biomedical research that's been done on chimps is because of the genetic similarity, which is the other way round.
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    Go back and read the thread but imagine I said "We used chimps in biomedical research for decades precisely because of that overlap, why do you think it's not a helpful measure?" Let's simplify so you have another way of looking at it: OP: COVID shares 90% DNA with SARS so the vaccines would be similar. OC: We share 99% DNA with chimps, so what? Me: We use chimps in research because they are so close to us. You: Well actually we don't anymore because of ethical concerns For the record, I think sentient creatures should have rights and I'm glad testing on chimpanzees has ended. Have they all been released to sanctuaries yet?
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      My very next sentence agreed that we use other primates for that reason.
      - Ensorceled 7y ago
        Yes, this is an additional reason you are being down voted. You "well actually"ed my point WHILE agreeing with my point.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        I was trying to add some clarifying details about something I know well. That's half the charm of this website.
        Ensorceled 7y ago
        It's the difference between "Yes, and we stopped ... " and "No, actually we don't". One is clarifying the second is distracting, appears to be disagreeing with facts, comes off as arrogant AND missed the point.
        thehappypm 7y ago
        Just admit you were wrong, dude.

Ensorceled 7y ago

You’re being downvoted for utterly missing the point.

mattkrause 7y ago
Care to explain?
- CardenB 7y ago
  The point is that we use genetically similar test subjects because it is helpful that they are genetically similar. The point was not to demonstrate which exact subspecies of primate that is used.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    Here's my counterpoint. I do this stuff for a living. I know that primates are a valuable translational model, which is why I've spent the last 15 years working with them in neuroscience labs. On the other hand, I also know that it's an ethically-tricky form of research too[+]. Public support for research depends on people understanding what we're doing and why. Conflating chimps with marmosets (which are still primates, but much less "human-like") or rhesus monkeys risks eroding that support. For example, I'm fine with genetically engineering marmosets; I would have serious misgivings about doing the same thing to generate autistic or Parkinsonian chimps. Therefore, I think this is an important distinction and not being careful about it puts the benefits of primate work--that you're trying to champion!--at risk. [+] For what it's worth, we do take excellent care of them.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      Still missing the point. The argument against chimps is ethical, not scientific. Chimps would still be better because they are closer.
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        Not necessarily. Along with the ethical issues, the Institute of Medicine concluded that it wasn’t scientifically warranted. Data from chimps would be slightly closer to humans, but it’s also hard to get: they are dangerously strong (much more so than macaques, which are already terrifying), grow very slowly, and need tons of care and space—-and therefore money—-to thrive. Those trade offs, made starker by ethical issues, lead them to wind down chimp research. As a tech analogy, writing a browser in assembler is closer” to the hardware and could theoretically result in faster code, but in practice nobody does it because it wouldn’t be worthwhile. Fairly little research is done in monkeys for the same reason. Mice are faster, easier, and offer more tools. This isn’t always a good thing; in fact, my last few projects have made a big deal about the value of a monkey data over rats. Nevertheless, I have zero desire to spin up an ape version.
        gridlockd 7y ago
        > Not necessarily. Absolutely. You have shown remarkable skill at missing the point that the GP was making. The context here is genetic similarity. We (humans) do use chimpanzees for research because of their genetic similarity. The point has nothing to do with any practical considerations besides genetic similarity. They all are irrelevant to the point. To be clear, nobody disagrees with your arguments on why chimps maybe aren't the best research animal. The fact that I have to explain this to you in excruciating detail should make you think about how your brain works. My unsolicited advice: If you don't have an Asperger's diagnosis yet, get one. If you do, put more work into managing in.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        Okay, how’s this? Tell me one major biomedical discovery, not comparative anatomy or physiology, that we learned first or best from chimp research. I have a PhD in this and can’t think of one. I agree that they're very genetically similar to humans. I agree that this, in some ways, would make them a good model organism. Where I disagree is that it's true we productively use(d) chimps in biomedical research for this reason. Instead, I would argue that the limited amount of biomedical research that's been done on chimps is because of the genetic similarity, which is the other way round.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  Go back and read the thread but imagine I said "We used chimps in biomedical research for decades precisely because of that overlap, why do you think it's not a helpful measure?" Let's simplify so you have another way of looking at it: OP: COVID shares 90% DNA with SARS so the vaccines would be similar. OC: We share 99% DNA with chimps, so what? Me: We use chimps in research because they are so close to us. You: Well actually we don't anymore because of ethical concerns For the record, I think sentient creatures should have rights and I'm glad testing on chimpanzees has ended. Have they all been released to sanctuaries yet?
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    My very next sentence agreed that we use other primates for that reason.
    - Ensorceled 7y ago
      Yes, this is an additional reason you are being down voted. You "well actually"ed my point WHILE agreeing with my point.
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        I was trying to add some clarifying details about something I know well. That's half the charm of this website.
        Ensorceled 7y ago
        It's the difference between "Yes, and we stopped ... " and "No, actually we don't". One is clarifying the second is distracting, appears to be disagreeing with facts, comes off as arrogant AND missed the point.
        thehappypm 7y ago
        Just admit you were wrong, dude.