7 ms·

On one level this is a funny story, on another level it is a great example of poverty and lack of opportunity leading to choices that turn dollars into pennies:

On one level this is a funny story, on another level it is a great example of poverty and lack of opportunity leading to choices that turn dollars into pennies: destroying a resource that can generate a huge amount of value for a much lower value but more accessible use. Same thing with ripping up train tracks to sell for scrap metal, which happens in some parts of the world.

paxys 7y ago
Pennies in your pocket is still preferable over dollars in someone else's when your kids haven't eaten in a week, which is the reality in a lot of these situations.
- macintux 7y ago
  Several years ago someone stole copper from outside a local food bank; the impact was tens of thousands of dollars of spoiled food when they broke the refrigeration. https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/8842842.html https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/8842842.html
- fastball 7y ago
  I don't believe GC was trying to make a moral judgement here.
- est31 7y ago
  In other words, giving people pennies lets others keep their dollars. So even if you are selfish you should support social programs.
  - nickff 7y ago
    This sounds a like an argument that social programs are extortion, which everyone should support. I don't think that's a good argument to make in favor of any government program.
    - STRML 7y ago
      No, it's an argument that social programs are smart, and prevent pain in the future. Long-term benefits are not extortion. Is eating healthy and exercising extortion? Is investing in education to get a better job extortion? Is saving money to take advantage of compound interest extortion? No, it's all just long-term decision making.
      - nickff 7y ago
        You're describing a protection racket.
        vmh1928 7y ago
        Only if the people getting the pennies demanded them in exchange for not cutting internet cables. Countries in the early 20th Century that did not have social programs, Russia, Germany after WW1, found large masses of discontented and starving people were fertile ground for populist messages. If those people had been well fed history might have taken a different course.
        hkai 7y ago
        Somehow rich elites are fertile grounds for socialist message no less than the discontented starving people.
        igorkraw 7y ago
        Well, not rich elites, mainly educated but not rich elites. For some reason, being on the winning side of capitalism seems to inoculate people against ideas of socioeconomic justice
    - kace91 7y ago
      >This sounds a like an argument that social programs are extortion I think the point is that human behavior at scale is not really that different from natural disasters. Not protecting against poverty in your surroundings would be comparable to building in a flood zone. Fixing that problem is not extortion anymore than building dams is paying protection money to the sea - there's no poor people shouting "cover my basic needs or else", but we know enough about our own race to know the issues that emerge with poverty.
  - mod 7y ago
    How does this keep them from taking both sets of pennies?
    - est31 7y ago
      You'll still need police, prisons, etc. But you could reduce their size as less people will require the attention of those state organs. People usually know that what they are doing is wrong, and would rather avoid doing it. Of course some are reckless, but that's what you still have police for.
    - boomlinde 7y ago
      There have been studies that show a causal relationship between poverty and crime such as petty theft and robbery. It seems intuitive to me. Sure, some people will always just be opportunists and steal because they can, but I can see how there could be a much larger subset of people to whom stealing would become an option when the other option is skipping meals or being homeless.
      - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
        I mean to add to your comment, the biggest thievery happens at the very top. A lot of countries' populations would be a lot more well-off if it wasn't for the massive tax evasion schemes employed by companies. Hundreds of billions of tax income - which can be spent on socialist policies like health care, housing, benefits, etc - is carted off to tax havens and just sits there. Bernie Madoff scammed people for nearly $65 billion. The US government pumped trillions into the military, which in the end did not have much return on investment. They spent all that money while their own country's people work three underpaid jobs and go bankrupt over student debt and medical bills. I mean I wouldn't even mind so much if the rich just kept buying ridiculous fancy cars, because at least that way the money moves around.
        0-O-0 7y ago
        > The US government pumped trillions into the military, which in the end did not have much return on investment Arguably it is one of the more successful socialist policies - certain parts of US would be economically devastated if not for the military related production.
  - gjs278 7y ago
    or we could just kill those people and keep our dollars and the change
  - hkai 7y ago
    Free money is never enough. People in Russia stole copper wires not because they were starving but to get money for drinks and entertainment.
    - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
      Bread and circuses. AND circuses; you can't just give people houses, food and money, you need to keep them busy and / or entertained as well. I think instead of just giving people money, you should give them work and purpose in life instead. The goal should be well-paid jobs at up to 40 hours / week, so that people can get job satisfaction, don't have to stress about money, and still have time left to have a balanced life.
- rmason 7y ago
  In Detroit thieves stripped all the wire and plumbing from abandoned houses, even furnaces were carted off. When the supply of houses ran thin they started stripping factories. When the freeways of Detroit flooded they found the pumping stations that were supposed to get rid of the excess water had been stripped. https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/copper-theft-a-possible-factor-in-metro-detroit-freeway-flooding/ https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/copper-theft-a-possi... Finally several hapless guys tried to get at the copper wiring in a power substation and were electrocuted. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/men-electrocuted-with-24k-volts-trying-to-steal-copper-wire https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/men-electrocuted-with-24k-v...
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    > When the freeways of Detroit flooded they found the pumping stations that were supposed to get rid of the excess water had been stripped. What the... this should have been caught by some form of monitoring or other security alerts.
    - michaelcampbell 7y ago
      paid for from tax revenues, which had long since ceased to be.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Have you ever read about the chronic oil pipeline explosions in Nigeria? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/nigeria-dozens-petrol-thieves-killed-aba-pipeline-blast-181013132945716.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/nigeria-dozens-petrol...
- z3t4 7y ago
  The solution is to get the country out of poverty. Using modern technology in the food industry, so that children can go to school instead of working the fields. And improving the child safety and health-care. The sad truths is that people get a lot of children because half will die. So by stopping over-population, you make it so that more people can survive. To solve this problem we have to give up some of our wealth. We will however git it back once they are out of poverty as we will get increased demand for modern services.
vikramkr 7y ago
Is it a choice if she didn't even know what it was?
sagarun 7y ago
My dad used to tell me this story, In rural India in the 60s the Federal Government would lay copper cables to bring electricity to the town. Some locals would bring down all the cables overnight and sell it in black market to some quck money. For them electricity wasn't that important compared to food on the table.
- vmception 7y ago
  I heard that story about fiber optics somewhere on the African continent 15 years ago so now I don't believe either story, unless this is a common entrepreneurial endeavor I've been sleeping on
  - onion2k 7y ago
    Some basic research goes a long way to augmenting what you might or might not believe about the world - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft
    - vmception 7y ago
      I heard they were being used for fabric / fashion I haven't thought about it for 15 years, and now with "basic research" and I couldn't find anything about either fiber optic or copper metal theft being used for fabric in Africa nothing on snopes, nothing in your wiki page. in my prior comment I felt either was equally likely it did nothing to augment what I might or might not believe, thank you for the contribution about general metal theft
      - hrydgard 7y ago
        It's absolutely a thing, even in developed countries people will steal cabling for scrap metal, even if it's getting rarer. Copper roofs on very old churches are also commonly stolen for scrap value.
      - fastball 7y ago
        The issue is that you didn't mention fabric / fashion in your first comment, and nobody can read your mind. Your initial comment came across as saying you just didn't believe that people steal metal.
GuiA 7y ago
Highly recommend the documentary “Honeyland”, about a poor Macedonian beekeeper.
skrebbel 7y ago
> Same thing with ripping up train tracks to sell for scrap metal, which happens in some parts of the world. This happens at times in the Netherlands too, and I bet many other affluent places, which sort of half invalidates your point. It's just theft. Theft also happens in places where most people aren't poor. I don't know a single place in the world that managed to distribute sufficiently much wealth sufficiently evenly that crime never pays.
- mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
  There is nuance if you're willing to see it. That you can't get to a point where it "never pays" doesn't mean people don't become more willing to steal as situations become more desperate and vice versa. You see a lot more copper getting ripped off during a recession.
  - restalis 7y ago
    Desperate people steal food, not cooper. Turning cooper into whatever they're supposedly desperate for requires patience and business-like level of effort organization, which goes beyond what desperation can explain. People chose to steal cooper because it's likely that they will get away with it, as there isn't much security in the areas of "work" to be taken into account, and probably also (cooper being a relatively cheap commodity) because getting get caught doesn't carry that much of a penalty risk.
    - ashtonkem 7y ago
      Selling stolen copper isn’t hard, there already is a network of scrap metal dealers that exist to purchase legitimately collected metal scrap for eventual reuse. All one needs to do is find one that’s willing to turn a blind eye to suspicious volumes, which is basically just the process of finding a fence in any other criminal enterprise. It’s not exactly rocket science.
    - literallycancer 7y ago
      Doing it effectively requires organization, yes. Stealing manhole covers, taking them to the forest and breaking them with a club, then selling them at the scrap yard as damaged -- only requires stupidity. Guy probably spent more on gas alone. And this actually happened if you were wondering. People will literally rip out metal wires from reinforced brick towers making them collapse while they are still inside. You can't make this shit up.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Happens in the developed world as well I worked for a UK telco and they had internal security people dedicated to this sort of crime - its also a problem for railways.
spapas82 7y ago
Here in Greece it's common to steal power transformers for their copper.

paxys 7y ago

Pennies in your pocket is still preferable over dollars in someone else's when your kids haven't eaten in a week, which is the reality in a lot of these situations.

macintux 7y ago
Several years ago someone stole copper from outside a local food bank; the impact was tens of thousands of dollars of spoiled food when they broke the refrigeration. https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/8842842.html https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/8842842.html
fastball 7y ago
I don't believe GC was trying to make a moral judgement here.
est31 7y ago
In other words, giving people pennies lets others keep their dollars. So even if you are selfish you should support social programs.
- nickff 7y ago
  This sounds a like an argument that social programs are extortion, which everyone should support. I don't think that's a good argument to make in favor of any government program.
  - STRML 7y ago
    No, it's an argument that social programs are smart, and prevent pain in the future. Long-term benefits are not extortion. Is eating healthy and exercising extortion? Is investing in education to get a better job extortion? Is saving money to take advantage of compound interest extortion? No, it's all just long-term decision making.
    - nickff 7y ago
      You're describing a protection racket.
      - vmh1928 7y ago
        Only if the people getting the pennies demanded them in exchange for not cutting internet cables. Countries in the early 20th Century that did not have social programs, Russia, Germany after WW1, found large masses of discontented and starving people were fertile ground for populist messages. If those people had been well fed history might have taken a different course.
        hkai 7y ago
        Somehow rich elites are fertile grounds for socialist message no less than the discontented starving people.
        igorkraw 7y ago
        Well, not rich elites, mainly educated but not rich elites. For some reason, being on the winning side of capitalism seems to inoculate people against ideas of socioeconomic justice
  - kace91 7y ago
    >This sounds a like an argument that social programs are extortion I think the point is that human behavior at scale is not really that different from natural disasters. Not protecting against poverty in your surroundings would be comparable to building in a flood zone. Fixing that problem is not extortion anymore than building dams is paying protection money to the sea - there's no poor people shouting "cover my basic needs or else", but we know enough about our own race to know the issues that emerge with poverty.
- mod 7y ago
  How does this keep them from taking both sets of pennies?
  - est31 7y ago
    You'll still need police, prisons, etc. But you could reduce their size as less people will require the attention of those state organs. People usually know that what they are doing is wrong, and would rather avoid doing it. Of course some are reckless, but that's what you still have police for.
  - boomlinde 7y ago
    There have been studies that show a causal relationship between poverty and crime such as petty theft and robbery. It seems intuitive to me. Sure, some people will always just be opportunists and steal because they can, but I can see how there could be a much larger subset of people to whom stealing would become an option when the other option is skipping meals or being homeless.
    - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
      I mean to add to your comment, the biggest thievery happens at the very top. A lot of countries' populations would be a lot more well-off if it wasn't for the massive tax evasion schemes employed by companies. Hundreds of billions of tax income - which can be spent on socialist policies like health care, housing, benefits, etc - is carted off to tax havens and just sits there. Bernie Madoff scammed people for nearly $65 billion. The US government pumped trillions into the military, which in the end did not have much return on investment. They spent all that money while their own country's people work three underpaid jobs and go bankrupt over student debt and medical bills. I mean I wouldn't even mind so much if the rich just kept buying ridiculous fancy cars, because at least that way the money moves around.
      - 0-O-0 7y ago
        > The US government pumped trillions into the military, which in the end did not have much return on investment Arguably it is one of the more successful socialist policies - certain parts of US would be economically devastated if not for the military related production.
- gjs278 7y ago
  or we could just kill those people and keep our dollars and the change
- hkai 7y ago
  Free money is never enough. People in Russia stole copper wires not because they were starving but to get money for drinks and entertainment.
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    Bread and circuses. AND circuses; you can't just give people houses, food and money, you need to keep them busy and / or entertained as well. I think instead of just giving people money, you should give them work and purpose in life instead. The goal should be well-paid jobs at up to 40 hours / week, so that people can get job satisfaction, don't have to stress about money, and still have time left to have a balanced life.
rmason 7y ago
In Detroit thieves stripped all the wire and plumbing from abandoned houses, even furnaces were carted off. When the supply of houses ran thin they started stripping factories. When the freeways of Detroit flooded they found the pumping stations that were supposed to get rid of the excess water had been stripped. https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/copper-theft-a-possible-factor-in-metro-detroit-freeway-flooding/ https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/copper-theft-a-possi... Finally several hapless guys tried to get at the copper wiring in a power substation and were electrocuted. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/men-electrocuted-with-24k-volts-trying-to-steal-copper-wire https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/men-electrocuted-with-24k-v...
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > When the freeways of Detroit flooded they found the pumping stations that were supposed to get rid of the excess water had been stripped. What the... this should have been caught by some form of monitoring or other security alerts.
  - michaelcampbell 7y ago
    paid for from tax revenues, which had long since ceased to be.
perl4ever 7y ago
Have you ever read about the chronic oil pipeline explosions in Nigeria? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/nigeria-dozens-petrol-thieves-killed-aba-pipeline-blast-181013132945716.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/nigeria-dozens-petrol...
z3t4 7y ago
The solution is to get the country out of poverty. Using modern technology in the food industry, so that children can go to school instead of working the fields. And improving the child safety and health-care. The sad truths is that people get a lot of children because half will die. So by stopping over-population, you make it so that more people can survive. To solve this problem we have to give up some of our wealth. We will however git it back once they are out of poverty as we will get increased demand for modern services.

vikramkr 7y ago

Is it a choice if she didn't even know what it was?

sagarun 7y ago

My dad used to tell me this story, In rural India in the 60s the Federal Government would lay copper cables to bring electricity to the town. Some locals would bring down all the cables overnight and sell it in black market to some quck money. For them electricity wasn't that important compared to food on the table.

vmception 7y ago
I heard that story about fiber optics somewhere on the African continent 15 years ago so now I don't believe either story, unless this is a common entrepreneurial endeavor I've been sleeping on
- onion2k 7y ago
  Some basic research goes a long way to augmenting what you might or might not believe about the world - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft
  - vmception 7y ago
    I heard they were being used for fabric / fashion I haven't thought about it for 15 years, and now with "basic research" and I couldn't find anything about either fiber optic or copper metal theft being used for fabric in Africa nothing on snopes, nothing in your wiki page. in my prior comment I felt either was equally likely it did nothing to augment what I might or might not believe, thank you for the contribution about general metal theft
    - hrydgard 7y ago
      It's absolutely a thing, even in developed countries people will steal cabling for scrap metal, even if it's getting rarer. Copper roofs on very old churches are also commonly stolen for scrap value.
    - fastball 7y ago
      The issue is that you didn't mention fabric / fashion in your first comment, and nobody can read your mind. Your initial comment came across as saying you just didn't believe that people steal metal.

GuiA 7y ago

Highly recommend the documentary “Honeyland”, about a poor Macedonian beekeeper.

skrebbel 7y ago

> Same thing with ripping up train tracks to sell for scrap metal, which happens in some parts of the world. This happens at times in the Netherlands too, and I bet many other affluent places, which sort of half invalidates your point. It's just theft. Theft also happens in places where most people aren't poor. I don't know a single place in the world that managed to distribute sufficiently much wealth sufficiently evenly that crime never pays.

mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
There is nuance if you're willing to see it. That you can't get to a point where it "never pays" doesn't mean people don't become more willing to steal as situations become more desperate and vice versa. You see a lot more copper getting ripped off during a recession.
- restalis 7y ago
  Desperate people steal food, not cooper. Turning cooper into whatever they're supposedly desperate for requires patience and business-like level of effort organization, which goes beyond what desperation can explain. People chose to steal cooper because it's likely that they will get away with it, as there isn't much security in the areas of "work" to be taken into account, and probably also (cooper being a relatively cheap commodity) because getting get caught doesn't carry that much of a penalty risk.
  - ashtonkem 7y ago
    Selling stolen copper isn’t hard, there already is a network of scrap metal dealers that exist to purchase legitimately collected metal scrap for eventual reuse. All one needs to do is find one that’s willing to turn a blind eye to suspicious volumes, which is basically just the process of finding a fence in any other criminal enterprise. It’s not exactly rocket science.
  - literallycancer 7y ago
    Doing it effectively requires organization, yes. Stealing manhole covers, taking them to the forest and breaking them with a club, then selling them at the scrap yard as damaged -- only requires stupidity. Guy probably spent more on gas alone. And this actually happened if you were wondering. People will literally rip out metal wires from reinforced brick towers making them collapse while they are still inside. You can't make this shit up.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Happens in the developed world as well I worked for a UK telco and they had internal security people dedicated to this sort of crime - its also a problem for railways.

spapas82 7y ago

Here in Greece it's common to steal power transformers for their copper.