5 ms·

Germany bans holocaust denial. That seems fine.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
The devil is always in the details. What does “denial of X” even mean? Can you dispute certain facts, like numbers and dates? Who gets to decide the ultimate truth? It takes a long time for the details of history to settle. For example, nobody knew most dinosaurs had feathers until the last decade.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  Truth exists, sorry for those who like to pretend it dosen't.
  - 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
    So would you support banning everyone on YouTube who went against WHO’s tweet[1] saying there’s no evidence of human to human transmission? That was only in January. https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-saying-china-found-no-human-transmission-of-coronavirus/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-sayin...
    - immutate 6y ago
      First of all, this is about “YouTube banning 'medically unsubstantiated' content.” as well as content that “would go against World Health Organization recommendations,” which (if those guidelines are followed) doesn’t mean banning of people or discourse, but rather disinformation. Secondly, the WHO tweeted that, but had actually already acknowledged human-to-human transmission multiple times[1][2] in the days before the tweet, so no, I wouldn’t support banning discussion around a tweet. 1. https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unkown-cause-china/en/ https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unk... 2. https://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china https://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-stateme...
      - dependenttypes 6y ago
        Content that goes "against World Health Organization recommendations" is not necessarily misinformation though.
        immutate 6y ago
        I agree. That being said, I think getting more definition and transparency around all this on YouTube/Google's part is going to be really important, though I don't expect it, sadly. There's a fair amount of flimflam being pushed on YouTube right now--everything from literally ingesting chlorine dioxide, to other "holistic" cures that _appear_ to be benign.
    - La1n 6y ago
      >saying there’s no evidence of human to human transmission Saying there is preliminary research that gives no clear evidence of it. Stop twisting the words
- immutate 6y ago
  Truth and fact are two different things.
throwbackThurs 6y ago
How can you even compare the two? Comments like this are truly insensitive. Denying the holocaust is banned for good reason. It happened. Denying the Holocaust negates millions of people their identity even into death. On the other hand questioning the blurred lines of advice to live healthily and not potentially hurt another due to a virus has everybodys best interest at heart and is generally positive.
throwqqq 6y ago
Given that they reinvented gunboat diplomacy for Greece, not really.
- SahAssar 6y ago
  How is Germany's handling of the Greek debt crisis at all comparable to forcing a nation to the table with the threat of invasion?
  - cHaOs667 6y ago
    Please, show us the facts where was a threat of invasion against Greece? Instead, there was a Greece threat to seize German property as a compensation for WWII: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31831694 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31831694
    - SahAssar 6y ago
      I'm saying there wasn't such a threat. throwqqq's parent comment compared it to gunboat diplomacy though, which is tantamount to a threat of invasion.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
austhrow743 6y ago
Nah its oppression.
lol2143651 6y ago
How would you know otherwise?
0xy 6y ago
Nothing emboldens racists like pointing to government oppression of their ideas. The KKK has free reign in the USA and they've experienced plummeting membership. Nothing kills bad ideas like sunlight and scrutiny, you don't need to ban it and make them martyrs.
- specialist 6y ago
  You're saying that racism and white supremacy is declining?
  - 0xy 6y ago
    That's not what I said, but it is according to empirical data. America is a long way from segregation and the LA riots. In 1990, nearly 50% of white respondents to a survey indicated they'd oppose living in a neighborhood where half the residents were black. In 2014, under 20% would oppose it and over 80% are indifferent or would favor it. Going back further than 1990 only serves to bolster that fact.
    - specialist 6y ago
      What explains the disconnect between public opinion surveys and real life segregation? "Throughout the 20th Century, racial discrimination was deliberate and intentional. Today, racial segregation and division result from policies and institutions that are no longer explicitly designed to discriminate. Yet the outcomes of those policies and beliefs have negative, racial impacts, namely with segregation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_Unit...
  - refurb 6y ago
    You think it’s increasing? Over what time frame? At least in North America, racism and white supremacy is a fraction of what it was 50 years ago.
    - specialist 6y ago
FeepingCreature 6y ago
As a German, I certainly don't want the governments of the world to generalize this. As the country who (arguably) started two world wars that killed probably low three-digit millions of people, we are in a special position to assure the world that we're not gonna launch a third. Part of that is being honest about the consequences of fascist governments. The relevant ban has decades of history as being specific and limited. Frankly, at this point I trust our government to not try and balloon it into a general suppression of free speech. I don't have the same trust for Youtube.

The devil is always in the details. What does “denial of X” even mean? Can you dispute certain facts, like numbers and dates? Who gets to decide the ultimate truth? It takes a long time for the details of history to settle. For example, nobody knew most dinosaurs had feathers until the last decade.

throwaway2048 6y ago
Truth exists, sorry for those who like to pretend it dosen't.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  So would you support banning everyone on YouTube who went against WHO’s tweet[1] saying there’s no evidence of human to human transmission? That was only in January. https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-saying-china-found-no-human-transmission-of-coronavirus/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-sayin...
  - immutate 6y ago
    First of all, this is about “YouTube banning 'medically unsubstantiated' content.” as well as content that “would go against World Health Organization recommendations,” which (if those guidelines are followed) doesn’t mean banning of people or discourse, but rather disinformation. Secondly, the WHO tweeted that, but had actually already acknowledged human-to-human transmission multiple times[1][2] in the days before the tweet, so no, I wouldn’t support banning discussion around a tweet. 1. https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unkown-cause-china/en/ https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unk... 2. https://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china https://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-stateme...
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      Content that goes "against World Health Organization recommendations" is not necessarily misinformation though.
      - immutate 6y ago
        I agree. That being said, I think getting more definition and transparency around all this on YouTube/Google's part is going to be really important, though I don't expect it, sadly. There's a fair amount of flimflam being pushed on YouTube right now--everything from literally ingesting chlorine dioxide, to other "holistic" cures that _appear_ to be benign.
  - La1n 6y ago
    >saying there’s no evidence of human to human transmission Saying there is preliminary research that gives no clear evidence of it. Stop twisting the words
immutate 6y ago
Truth and fact are two different things.

throwbackThurs 6y ago

How can you even compare the two? Comments like this are truly insensitive. Denying the holocaust is banned for good reason. It happened. Denying the Holocaust negates millions of people their identity even into death. On the other hand questioning the blurred lines of advice to live healthily and not potentially hurt another due to a virus has everybodys best interest at heart and is generally positive.

throwqqq 6y ago

Given that they reinvented gunboat diplomacy for Greece, not really.

SahAssar 6y ago
How is Germany's handling of the Greek debt crisis at all comparable to forcing a nation to the table with the threat of invasion?
- cHaOs667 6y ago
  Please, show us the facts where was a threat of invasion against Greece? Instead, there was a Greece threat to seize German property as a compensation for WWII: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31831694 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31831694
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    I'm saying there wasn't such a threat. throwqqq's parent comment compared it to gunboat diplomacy though, which is tantamount to a threat of invasion.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

austhrow743 6y ago

Nah its oppression.

lol2143651 6y ago

How would you know otherwise?

0xy 6y ago

Nothing emboldens racists like pointing to government oppression of their ideas. The KKK has free reign in the USA and they've experienced plummeting membership. Nothing kills bad ideas like sunlight and scrutiny, you don't need to ban it and make them martyrs.

specialist 6y ago
You're saying that racism and white supremacy is declining?
- 0xy 6y ago
  That's not what I said, but it is according to empirical data. America is a long way from segregation and the LA riots. In 1990, nearly 50% of white respondents to a survey indicated they'd oppose living in a neighborhood where half the residents were black. In 2014, under 20% would oppose it and over 80% are indifferent or would favor it. Going back further than 1990 only serves to bolster that fact.
  - specialist 6y ago
    What explains the disconnect between public opinion surveys and real life segregation? "Throughout the 20th Century, racial discrimination was deliberate and intentional. Today, racial segregation and division result from policies and institutions that are no longer explicitly designed to discriminate. Yet the outcomes of those policies and beliefs have negative, racial impacts, namely with segregation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_Unit...
- refurb 6y ago
  You think it’s increasing? Over what time frame? At least in North America, racism and white supremacy is a fraction of what it was 50 years ago.
  - specialist 6y ago

FeepingCreature 6y ago

As a German, I certainly don't want the governments of the world to generalize this. As the country who (arguably) started two world wars that killed probably low three-digit millions of people, we are in a special position to assure the world that we're not gonna launch a third. Part of that is being honest about the consequences of fascist governments. The relevant ban has decades of history as being specific and limited. Frankly, at this point I trust our government to not try and balloon it into a general suppression of free speech. I don't have the same trust for Youtube.