6 ms·

You can in fact close the door on people. This is also effective.

pc86 7y ago
The fact that people even open the door to strangers with clipboards is hard for me to comprehend. If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason. If you have a badge and a gun, I'm probably not opening the door.
- jedberg 7y ago
  If they have a badge and gun demand that they slip the warrant under the door first. Then call the watch commander to verify it.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Do they just wait around to let you take your time to go back and call to verify?
    - jedberg 7y ago
      I don't know, never been served a search warrant. Obviously this isn't legal advice, but it's what defense lawyer friends have suggested if it ever comes up. I think that popular video about "never talk to cops" mentions something like it too? I assume if they don't wait, it helps your court case. They could always go with the "probable cause" argument, but again this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause.
      - mehrdadn 7y ago
        I'm less worried about the court case and more worried about what can immediately go wrong if you look like you're stalling.
      - jlgaddis 7y ago
        > ... this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause. Pro-tip: if they're at your door with a warrant, they have probable cause.
        jedberg 7y ago
        Yeah but if they're robbers with a fake badge and gun, how will I know? At least when they barge in I'll already be on the phone with the cops.
        astura 7y ago
        Your threat model is imaginary, if they are robbers posing as cops, they wouldn't knock and wait patiently, they'd just serve you a fake "no knock warrant" (kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades).
        Naracion 7y ago
        I'm sorry, this comment is not necessarily a reply to you directly but to the thread in general--are we talking about the real world or some fictional TV show? Genuine question, is this something a "normal" HN reader should be worried about? Is there any evidence of such incidents happening ("kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades")?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I see no reason why a robber posing as a cop would want to draw more attention to themselves than necessary.
        gtyras2mrs 7y ago
        Could just be at the wrong door. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/aiyana-stanley-jones-detroit/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/aiyana-stanley-...
    - waste_monk 7y ago
      My understanding is a valid warrant (which as someone else mentioned does not have to be a physical piece of paper) grants them immediate access and they don't have to wait to verify. If you don't open the door, it will be opened for you by battering ram - demanding you open it is more of a courtesy. Think about it: say someone has a bunch of drugs, you wouldn't want to give them time to start flushing it down the toilet while they call up and verify the warrant is valid. You kick the door in, arrest them, and secure the scene for forensics and evidence collection.
      - mehrdadn 7y ago
        I assumed something along those lines, but I think they have to knock unless there's a no-knock warrant? I just don't expect they'll be amused if you tell them to hang on for a few minutes while you "verify" the warrant.
  - pc86 7y ago
    There's a lot that go wrong with this approach, and the upside is pretty obviously dwarfed by the (small to minuscule, depending on many many factors) chance of getting murdered while puffing about your rights. Whose front door has a gap underneath it, anyway? Assuming they knock and announce they have a warrant as opposed to knocking the door down, you open the door and they start coming in immediately. You can read the warrant, they'll likely shove it in your face. You should be on the phone to an attorney or the local bar association before the last officer in past the threshold, anyway. I'm pretty shocked an attorney would suggest doing something that can very likely be construed as stalling for time when tensions are likely pretty high.
  - jlgaddis 7y ago
    You're aware that -- regardless of what you might have seen on TV or the movies -- they don't actually have to present a physical warrant, right? Nor do they have to allow you time to call a "watch commander to verify it". What is likely, however, is that you're gonna be shopping for a new front door if you don't open up by about the second knock -- if they give you that long.
- eythian 7y ago
  What a weird, paranoid idea. Typically people come to my door for legitimately useful or appropriate purposes.
  - pc86 7y ago
    It's not paranoid, I don't think everybody knocking is coming to get me or anything. I'm just not interested in whatever it is they have to offer. If I'm in the market for a service, I'll do the research and reach out.
    - eythian 7y ago
      The only people who come to my door are gas people saying that they're going to be turning it off for a period/back on, window washers coming to clean the windows they can't reach from the outside, and similar things. I do want what they offer, because it's useful/important.
  - sbarre 7y ago
    He also lives in the US, where current laws and general social norms and expectations means there's a much higher perceived/actual risk to opening your front door to a random stranger, so it's less surprising to hear this.. This problem, at least at that level of magnitude, does not exist in other parts of the world.
    - Nerevarine76 7y ago
      Have you ever lived in the US? You're statement is probably only somewhat valid in the worst neighborhoods. People don't shoot you in the face when you open the door...
      - setpatchaddress 7y ago
        People come to the door in my neighborhood for only a few reasons: - to sell me on religion - to solicit money for some kind of commercial service, charity, non-profit fundraiser - to sign me up for political stuff And they do this several times a week (pre-COVID). So I never open the door to surprise strangers. It's not paranoia; it's just preventing the waste of my time and emotional energy. I'm not interested in worshipping a sky demon. It's not incumbent on me to figure out whether the service is legit, rent-seeking grift on top of a legit service, or a total scam. I don't have to figure out how to gently turn them down just to keep junk food out of the house.
- rfrey 7y ago
  What? What if it's a neighbour you haven't met asking you over for a bbq? Or somebody who noticed your garage door was swinging open and wanted you to know they'd closed it? Or OMG what if somebody needs a boost because their car battery is dead? Oh man, I couldn't bear it if I became that guy who didn't give someone a boost. Signed, A Canadian HN user
  - cobbzilla 7y ago
    I’d hope none of your hypotheticals would require a “clipboard in hand”, which is the red flag GP mentions - likely it’s a cold calling solicitation.
    - rfrey 7y ago
      "If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason"
      - Naracion 7y ago
        That was with the pretext of it being a person standing at your front door with a clipboard--if such a person did not also have a badge and a gun, GP wouldn't open the door.
  - distantaidenn 7y ago
    This really hit me for some reason. I’m a non white American, and not to exaggerate, afraid of knocking on a stranger’s door. I’d be quite worried if I ever became stranded in a white neighborhood and had to knock on a random door for assistance.
    - jlawson 7y ago
      I hope you'll consider changing your media diet, because your current selection is filling you with irrational racist fear. That's not how the real world is. Consider lolc's comment below: "I once got lost in typical U.S. suburbia and the first door I knocked the guy wouldn't tell me the direction I needed to go but insisted on driving me there. I was conscious of being percieved as a potential threat in that situation. But me being percieved as a likely nuisance to be ignored didn't cross my mind."
- fukpaywalls 7y ago
  if you have a gun and badge, i'm probably already out the back door.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason. Then when your irrigation system has sprung a leak and is spewing water all over the side of my house, I'm going to go to the valve on the sidewalk in front of your house and turn off the water to your house while your family is trying to shower and make breakfast. That's exactly what happened when my neighbor refused to answer his door one morning at 6am.
  - gpm 7y ago
    You guys have valves on the sidewalk that anyone can just shut off?
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Yep. They're metal lids labeled "water" that you lift up and inside there is a valve that can be turned. They're very common in most cities in which I've lived.
    - chipsa 7y ago
      There's usually an internal and an external shutoff valve. Inside is easier when you're working on things inside, but the water company may need to turn off your water, and they can't depend on being able to get inside. So valve on the sidewalk (or in the lawn as the case may be).
- mosselman 7y ago
  What do guns have to do with anything? Why would a badge alone not be enough? Why are you trying to sound so epic? What are you trying to prove? Are you the type of person who brings assault rifles to a protest to make some sort of cowboy-style point? I totally get not wanting to talk to people who are trying to sell you something, but if you are such a bad ass, living in your wild west world, why don't you try bringing up the courage to just tell someone at your door that you won't buy anything from them? Seems easy enough to me.
msla 7y ago
> You can in fact close the door on people. Hence the saying "get your foot in the door" for getting an opportunity to talk to someone.
- naniwaduni 7y ago
  Hopefully ensuring that anyone who tries that just happens to subsequently suffer foot pain will work as a deterrent...
rsanek 7y ago
Though less socially acceptable. I find that to be the primary advantage of gp's approach.

pc86 7y ago

The fact that people even open the door to strangers with clipboards is hard for me to comprehend. If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason. If you have a badge and a gun, I'm probably not opening the door.

jedberg 7y ago
If they have a badge and gun demand that they slip the warrant under the door first. Then call the watch commander to verify it.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Do they just wait around to let you take your time to go back and call to verify?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I don't know, never been served a search warrant. Obviously this isn't legal advice, but it's what defense lawyer friends have suggested if it ever comes up. I think that popular video about "never talk to cops" mentions something like it too? I assume if they don't wait, it helps your court case. They could always go with the "probable cause" argument, but again this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I'm less worried about the court case and more worried about what can immediately go wrong if you look like you're stalling.
    - jlgaddis 7y ago
      > ... this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause. Pro-tip: if they're at your door with a warrant, they have probable cause.
      - jedberg 7y ago
        Yeah but if they're robbers with a fake badge and gun, how will I know? At least when they barge in I'll already be on the phone with the cops.
        astura 7y ago
        Your threat model is imaginary, if they are robbers posing as cops, they wouldn't knock and wait patiently, they'd just serve you a fake "no knock warrant" (kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades).
        Naracion 7y ago
        I'm sorry, this comment is not necessarily a reply to you directly but to the thread in general--are we talking about the real world or some fictional TV show? Genuine question, is this something a "normal" HN reader should be worried about? Is there any evidence of such incidents happening ("kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades")?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I see no reason why a robber posing as a cop would want to draw more attention to themselves than necessary.
      - gtyras2mrs 7y ago
        Could just be at the wrong door. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/aiyana-stanley-jones-detroit/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/aiyana-stanley-...
  - waste_monk 7y ago
    My understanding is a valid warrant (which as someone else mentioned does not have to be a physical piece of paper) grants them immediate access and they don't have to wait to verify. If you don't open the door, it will be opened for you by battering ram - demanding you open it is more of a courtesy. Think about it: say someone has a bunch of drugs, you wouldn't want to give them time to start flushing it down the toilet while they call up and verify the warrant is valid. You kick the door in, arrest them, and secure the scene for forensics and evidence collection.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I assumed something along those lines, but I think they have to knock unless there's a no-knock warrant? I just don't expect they'll be amused if you tell them to hang on for a few minutes while you "verify" the warrant.
- pc86 7y ago
  There's a lot that go wrong with this approach, and the upside is pretty obviously dwarfed by the (small to minuscule, depending on many many factors) chance of getting murdered while puffing about your rights. Whose front door has a gap underneath it, anyway? Assuming they knock and announce they have a warrant as opposed to knocking the door down, you open the door and they start coming in immediately. You can read the warrant, they'll likely shove it in your face. You should be on the phone to an attorney or the local bar association before the last officer in past the threshold, anyway. I'm pretty shocked an attorney would suggest doing something that can very likely be construed as stalling for time when tensions are likely pretty high.
- jlgaddis 7y ago
  You're aware that -- regardless of what you might have seen on TV or the movies -- they don't actually have to present a physical warrant, right? Nor do they have to allow you time to call a "watch commander to verify it". What is likely, however, is that you're gonna be shopping for a new front door if you don't open up by about the second knock -- if they give you that long.
eythian 7y ago
What a weird, paranoid idea. Typically people come to my door for legitimately useful or appropriate purposes.
- pc86 7y ago
  It's not paranoid, I don't think everybody knocking is coming to get me or anything. I'm just not interested in whatever it is they have to offer. If I'm in the market for a service, I'll do the research and reach out.
  - eythian 7y ago
    The only people who come to my door are gas people saying that they're going to be turning it off for a period/back on, window washers coming to clean the windows they can't reach from the outside, and similar things. I do want what they offer, because it's useful/important.
- sbarre 7y ago
  He also lives in the US, where current laws and general social norms and expectations means there's a much higher perceived/actual risk to opening your front door to a random stranger, so it's less surprising to hear this.. This problem, at least at that level of magnitude, does not exist in other parts of the world.
  - Nerevarine76 7y ago
    Have you ever lived in the US? You're statement is probably only somewhat valid in the worst neighborhoods. People don't shoot you in the face when you open the door...
    - setpatchaddress 7y ago
      People come to the door in my neighborhood for only a few reasons: - to sell me on religion - to solicit money for some kind of commercial service, charity, non-profit fundraiser - to sign me up for political stuff And they do this several times a week (pre-COVID). So I never open the door to surprise strangers. It's not paranoia; it's just preventing the waste of my time and emotional energy. I'm not interested in worshipping a sky demon. It's not incumbent on me to figure out whether the service is legit, rent-seeking grift on top of a legit service, or a total scam. I don't have to figure out how to gently turn them down just to keep junk food out of the house.
rfrey 7y ago
What? What if it's a neighbour you haven't met asking you over for a bbq? Or somebody who noticed your garage door was swinging open and wanted you to know they'd closed it? Or OMG what if somebody needs a boost because their car battery is dead? Oh man, I couldn't bear it if I became that guy who didn't give someone a boost. Signed, A Canadian HN user
- cobbzilla 7y ago
  I’d hope none of your hypotheticals would require a “clipboard in hand”, which is the red flag GP mentions - likely it’s a cold calling solicitation.
  - rfrey 7y ago
    "If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason"
    - Naracion 7y ago
      That was with the pretext of it being a person standing at your front door with a clipboard--if such a person did not also have a badge and a gun, GP wouldn't open the door.
- distantaidenn 7y ago
  This really hit me for some reason. I’m a non white American, and not to exaggerate, afraid of knocking on a stranger’s door. I’d be quite worried if I ever became stranded in a white neighborhood and had to knock on a random door for assistance.
  - jlawson 7y ago
    I hope you'll consider changing your media diet, because your current selection is filling you with irrational racist fear. That's not how the real world is. Consider lolc's comment below: "I once got lost in typical U.S. suburbia and the first door I knocked the guy wouldn't tell me the direction I needed to go but insisted on driving me there. I was conscious of being percieved as a potential threat in that situation. But me being percieved as a likely nuisance to be ignored didn't cross my mind."
fukpaywalls 7y ago
if you have a gun and badge, i'm probably already out the back door.
reaperducer 7y ago
If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason. Then when your irrigation system has sprung a leak and is spewing water all over the side of my house, I'm going to go to the valve on the sidewalk in front of your house and turn off the water to your house while your family is trying to shower and make breakfast. That's exactly what happened when my neighbor refused to answer his door one morning at 6am.
- gpm 7y ago
  You guys have valves on the sidewalk that anyone can just shut off?
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Yep. They're metal lids labeled "water" that you lift up and inside there is a valve that can be turned. They're very common in most cities in which I've lived.
  - chipsa 7y ago
    There's usually an internal and an external shutoff valve. Inside is easier when you're working on things inside, but the water company may need to turn off your water, and they can't depend on being able to get inside. So valve on the sidewalk (or in the lawn as the case may be).
mosselman 7y ago
What do guns have to do with anything? Why would a badge alone not be enough? Why are you trying to sound so epic? What are you trying to prove? Are you the type of person who brings assault rifles to a protest to make some sort of cowboy-style point? I totally get not wanting to talk to people who are trying to sell you something, but if you are such a bad ass, living in your wild west world, why don't you try bringing up the courage to just tell someone at your door that you won't buy anything from them? Seems easy enough to me.

msla 7y ago

> You can in fact close the door on people. Hence the saying "get your foot in the door" for getting an opportunity to talk to someone.

naniwaduni 7y ago
Hopefully ensuring that anyone who tries that just happens to subsequently suffer foot pain will work as a deterrent...

rsanek 7y ago

Though less socially acceptable. I find that to be the primary advantage of gp's approach.