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Absolutely correct, CS != Software Engineering. CS != Code, as a previous poster suggested. CS != Business aspects of software development. CS != Guarantee t

Absolutely correct, CS != Software Engineering. CS != Code, as a previous poster suggested. CS != Business aspects of software development. CS != Guarantee that you'll get a job you'll like as a programmer, or even a job as a programmer. CS != Guarantee that you will be able to fix systemic problems in systems, understanding, culture or process in corporations or other organizations, by fixing code. CS != Guarantee that you'll launch a successful website, or start a successful startup. CS != Guarantee that you'll be able to raise venture capital, or be able to sell enough to gain your first customers to become "ramen profitable". CS != Guarantee of success, or that you'll get what you want in life... I am 99.44% self-taught -- my opinion is that CS degrees are overvalued and overpriced, but that being said, they're not wrong for everybody...

DeathArrow 7y ago
On the contrary. I feel that having a formal CS education (VS and MsC) in CS, made me a much better software engineer and a better coder. Most of the stuff I use (languages, tools, frameworks) I've learned myself. But CS courses have taught me a lot, I have a deeper understanding of how things work and I can solve hard problems, I know instinctively where to look to solve an issue, and what I need to research to make things work as they should. Based on my experience, employers tend to prefer people with CS education over people without, if that is the only difference. Also, talking with my peers, I have the sense that people with formal CS education managed to negotiate better salaries. Also, I my country, programmers with degrees in CS have lower income taxes. For me it payed big time to spend that time learning, even if in the first two years when the courses seemed boring I did have the opinion that I was wasting time. Some of my colleagues dropped out to work in the industry, some were working and studying in parallel. Those who dropped out have a harder time now. They have a harder time finding a good workplace and they have lower wages. Would you agree to undergo surgery by a self taught physician or you would trust more one with formal education?
- peter_d_sherman 7y ago
  Did I not say "they're not wrong for everybody", in what I wrote? ? Look, more power to you if you have a CS degree. Sure, they can open doors, I agree. If I were an employer, and I had only two job applicants to choose from, and the choice was between someone with a CS degree and without one, and there were no other differences, nothing different in the way that they thought, no difference in what books they read, no difference in their general level of intellectual achievement, no difference in their goals and aspirations (perhaps one strongly desires to learn technical things without having a degree, and perhaps one does not...). Well, without any of those other differences, if one has a degree and the other doesn't, then yes, I'd choose the one that has the degree over the one that doesn't. But that's assuming that I'm a standard employer... and that I don't know the first thing about CS myself... If I'm a smart employer, I might test both individuals' ability to cognitively reason about problems. For example, I might have both candidates add the numbers from 1 to 100, and see what they do. This was a challenge that was historically put forth to Carl Friedrich Gauss when he was a student (I should point out, he didn't know the first thing about computers or programming, as they didn't have computers, programming, or CS degrees back then). All of the other children attempted to add the numbers from 1 to 100 one at a time, for example, 1+2 (3), 3+3 (6), 6+4 (10), etc. This took them a very long time. You see, the teacher had expected that this would take a long time for most students, that it would keep them occupied. That was the teacher's goal. The teacher was very surprised when after a few minutes when Carl Friedrich Gauss' hand shot up. He had solved it! He had solved it not by adding all of the numbers one at a time, but solved it by realizing that if you added the first term and the last term (1+100, 2+99, etc.), it resulted in 101 every time, now all you needed to do was multiply 101 by half of 100, which is 50. Which is much, much faster! We call that an algorithm. A CS degree is < 10% code, and > 90% algorithms. You see, the teacher could have used that simple test to see that Carl Friedrich Gauss -- was going to go places in life. He was going to go to great places, and do great things... and he did! Even without a CS degree... which they didn't have back then... If I gave this test, or others like it, other tests involving mathematical / logical reasoning to people with CS degrees and without, and if the people without a CS degree answered these questions correctly, reasoned correctly, it would show that they have the talent, they have the capacity for computer science, with a CS degree -- or without... "Would you agree to undergo surgery by a self taught physician or you would trust more one with formal education?" It will always be the person that persuades me that their knowledge/experience relative to the goal I'm seeking is the highest among all candidates. If that's someone university educated, then that's someone university educated. But show me a faster/better way to do things, and prove to me that you're knowledgeable and it works, and I'm all in...
jart 7y ago
I'd rather know a few things about CS and live in a clay jar than not know it and be making bank.

DeathArrow 7y ago

On the contrary. I feel that having a formal CS education (VS and MsC) in CS, made me a much better software engineer and a better coder. Most of the stuff I use (languages, tools, frameworks) I've learned myself. But CS courses have taught me a lot, I have a deeper understanding of how things work and I can solve hard problems, I know instinctively where to look to solve an issue, and what I need to research to make things work as they should. Based on my experience, employers tend to prefer people with CS education over people without, if that is the only difference. Also, talking with my peers, I have the sense that people with formal CS education managed to negotiate better salaries. Also, I my country, programmers with degrees in CS have lower income taxes. For me it payed big time to spend that time learning, even if in the first two years when the courses seemed boring I did have the opinion that I was wasting time. Some of my colleagues dropped out to work in the industry, some were working and studying in parallel. Those who dropped out have a harder time now. They have a harder time finding a good workplace and they have lower wages. Would you agree to undergo surgery by a self taught physician or you would trust more one with formal education?

peter_d_sherman 7y ago
Did I not say "they're not wrong for everybody", in what I wrote? ? Look, more power to you if you have a CS degree. Sure, they can open doors, I agree. If I were an employer, and I had only two job applicants to choose from, and the choice was between someone with a CS degree and without one, and there were no other differences, nothing different in the way that they thought, no difference in what books they read, no difference in their general level of intellectual achievement, no difference in their goals and aspirations (perhaps one strongly desires to learn technical things without having a degree, and perhaps one does not...). Well, without any of those other differences, if one has a degree and the other doesn't, then yes, I'd choose the one that has the degree over the one that doesn't. But that's assuming that I'm a standard employer... and that I don't know the first thing about CS myself... If I'm a smart employer, I might test both individuals' ability to cognitively reason about problems. For example, I might have both candidates add the numbers from 1 to 100, and see what they do. This was a challenge that was historically put forth to Carl Friedrich Gauss when he was a student (I should point out, he didn't know the first thing about computers or programming, as they didn't have computers, programming, or CS degrees back then). All of the other children attempted to add the numbers from 1 to 100 one at a time, for example, 1+2 (3), 3+3 (6), 6+4 (10), etc. This took them a very long time. You see, the teacher had expected that this would take a long time for most students, that it would keep them occupied. That was the teacher's goal. The teacher was very surprised when after a few minutes when Carl Friedrich Gauss' hand shot up. He had solved it! He had solved it not by adding all of the numbers one at a time, but solved it by realizing that if you added the first term and the last term (1+100, 2+99, etc.), it resulted in 101 every time, now all you needed to do was multiply 101 by half of 100, which is 50. Which is much, much faster! We call that an algorithm. A CS degree is < 10% code, and > 90% algorithms. You see, the teacher could have used that simple test to see that Carl Friedrich Gauss -- was going to go places in life. He was going to go to great places, and do great things... and he did! Even without a CS degree... which they didn't have back then... If I gave this test, or others like it, other tests involving mathematical / logical reasoning to people with CS degrees and without, and if the people without a CS degree answered these questions correctly, reasoned correctly, it would show that they have the talent, they have the capacity for computer science, with a CS degree -- or without... "Would you agree to undergo surgery by a self taught physician or you would trust more one with formal education?" It will always be the person that persuades me that their knowledge/experience relative to the goal I'm seeking is the highest among all candidates. If that's someone university educated, then that's someone university educated. But show me a faster/better way to do things, and prove to me that you're knowledgeable and it works, and I'm all in...

jart 7y ago

I'd rather know a few things about CS and live in a clay jar than not know it and be making bank.