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This has little to do with common sense vs Science. You can easily make the scientific case towards controlling the borders and isolating, it simply hasn't been

This has little to do with common sense vs Science. You can easily make the scientific case towards controlling the borders and isolating, it simply hasn't been done in Sweden's case. Handwaving away the necessity for scientifically vetting the idea of closing the borders, behind the idea that every country in Europe is already infected isn't good enough to claim a meritious victory for science over common sense. The four debates Jordan Peterson did with Sam Harris about the reduction of information down to science and the necessity for building value structures and behavioural interpretations of facts proves to me that Science can't tell you how to behave. It can show you what facts will prevent death and what won't, but we never have enough resources to sciencetifically test every single decision tree outcome, there are an infinite number of objective facts. We make best guesses about which idea to follow based on value structure and gathered information we build over time. Sweden's version of common sense is to follow what the scientific signallers are telling them, their reaction to the virus is an expression of culture and law that has little to do with the facts. They can't lockdown even if it was better. Australia locked down and followed the norms for great success with double the population to Sweden, despite having similar issues with aged care facilities. Finland is performing well. I don't see the evidence to support the Swedish solution, nor it as virtous example of science over common sense.

Mirioron 6y ago
>I don't see the evidence to support the Swedish solution, nor it as virtous example of science over common sense. The strong point of Sweden's response is that the Swedish economy is going to suffer much less. Other countries will have to piece their economies together after their lockdowns end. Furthermore, Sweden can keep things going as they are for a long time. How long do you think Australia could keep its lockdown going? If there's going to be evidence to show that Sweden was right then it'll likely take a few years before we can measure the economic impact and all that brings with it. I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying it's too early to tell that they're wrong.
- friendlybus 6y ago
  I'm all good with Sweden doing what it wants, it's nice to see a country stand up for it's own values and culture and laws in the face of a deadly virus and find an outcome that works. Pushing a weak argument about the virtues of science as a reasoning for doing so seems a bit much. Australia will go as long as necessary, it is taking this opportunity to do the largest economic reform in 30 years. Australia relies on reform to stop itself from becoming the 'poor white trash in asia' (Lee Kuan Yew). Reductions in corporation tax, strengthening of unions and many more changes. Retail had been slowing down pre-covid and the mining is out of it's boom cycle. There has been rumblings for change coming for a while and all this lockdown is a great way to rejig the setup. We are setting up our agriculture to boom in the 30s so in the long term we should be okay.
- esoterica 6y ago
  The IMF predicts that Sweden's GDP is going to shrink 6.8% this year. Denmark, Norway and Finland are predicted to shrink only 6.5%, 6.3% and 6.0% respectively, despite locking down more aggressively than Sweden. https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/DNK https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/DNK https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/NOR https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/NOR https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/FIN https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/FIN
- nl 6y ago
  Australia is talking about being to reduce the lockdown in 4 weeks. The Australian lockdown isn't complete - shops are still open, can go to offices if required, schools will open next term except in one state (it's holidays at the moment). The economic cost is high, but unclear how much more than Sweden. Unemployment in Sweden hit 8% in the most recent quarter[1], while Australia's is forecast to reach 10%. The IMF is forecasting -6.8% growth in Sweden[3], vs -6.7 in Australia[4] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/20/world/europe/20reuters-health-coronavirus-sweden-unemployment.html https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/20/world/europe/20re... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-unemployment-covid-19-treasury-figures-jobless-rate/12145542 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-unemploym... [3] https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE [4] https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/AUS https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/AUS
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    I dont understand the point you are making. Australia’s lockdown has been progressing and alleviating at the same rate as the rest of the world. Most countries are having a reprieve. Japan is going into lockdown lite and Australia’s economy was slowing pre covid anyway.
    - nl 6y ago
      That was in response to "Furthermore, Sweden can keep things going as they are for a long time. How long do you think Australia could keep its lockdown going?" I was giving evidence to show the impact on the Australian economy isn't obviously higher than the impact on Sweden, but with 1/10th of the number of deaths.

Mirioron 6y ago

>I don't see the evidence to support the Swedish solution, nor it as virtous example of science over common sense. The strong point of Sweden's response is that the Swedish economy is going to suffer much less. Other countries will have to piece their economies together after their lockdowns end. Furthermore, Sweden can keep things going as they are for a long time. How long do you think Australia could keep its lockdown going? If there's going to be evidence to show that Sweden was right then it'll likely take a few years before we can measure the economic impact and all that brings with it. I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying it's too early to tell that they're wrong.

friendlybus 6y ago
I'm all good with Sweden doing what it wants, it's nice to see a country stand up for it's own values and culture and laws in the face of a deadly virus and find an outcome that works. Pushing a weak argument about the virtues of science as a reasoning for doing so seems a bit much. Australia will go as long as necessary, it is taking this opportunity to do the largest economic reform in 30 years. Australia relies on reform to stop itself from becoming the 'poor white trash in asia' (Lee Kuan Yew). Reductions in corporation tax, strengthening of unions and many more changes. Retail had been slowing down pre-covid and the mining is out of it's boom cycle. There has been rumblings for change coming for a while and all this lockdown is a great way to rejig the setup. We are setting up our agriculture to boom in the 30s so in the long term we should be okay.
esoterica 6y ago
The IMF predicts that Sweden's GDP is going to shrink 6.8% this year. Denmark, Norway and Finland are predicted to shrink only 6.5%, 6.3% and 6.0% respectively, despite locking down more aggressively than Sweden. https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/DNK https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/DNK https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/NOR https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/NOR https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/FIN https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/FIN
nl 6y ago
Australia is talking about being to reduce the lockdown in 4 weeks. The Australian lockdown isn't complete - shops are still open, can go to offices if required, schools will open next term except in one state (it's holidays at the moment). The economic cost is high, but unclear how much more than Sweden. Unemployment in Sweden hit 8% in the most recent quarter[1], while Australia's is forecast to reach 10%. The IMF is forecasting -6.8% growth in Sweden[3], vs -6.7 in Australia[4] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/20/world/europe/20reuters-health-coronavirus-sweden-unemployment.html https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/20/world/europe/20re... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-unemployment-covid-19-treasury-figures-jobless-rate/12145542 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-unemploym... [3] https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE [4] https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/AUS https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/AUS
- friendlybus 6y ago
  I dont understand the point you are making. Australia’s lockdown has been progressing and alleviating at the same rate as the rest of the world. Most countries are having a reprieve. Japan is going into lockdown lite and Australia’s economy was slowing pre covid anyway.
  - nl 6y ago
    That was in response to "Furthermore, Sweden can keep things going as they are for a long time. How long do you think Australia could keep its lockdown going?" I was giving evidence to show the impact on the Australian economy isn't obviously higher than the impact on Sweden, but with 1/10th of the number of deaths.