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Teachers unions haven't seem to hurt Finland (#1 in education), and auto unions haven't seem to hurt Germany. Theirs are much stronger than our respective unio

Teachers unions haven't seem to hurt Finland (#1 in education), and auto unions haven't seem to hurt Germany. Theirs are much stronger than our respective unions.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Rather than selecting an outlier [1], lets compare two typical US states: Texas and Wisconsin. http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-ba... It seems the non-unionized teachers in Texas do considerably better than the unionized teachers in Wisconsin, particularly for minorities. [1] At least, according to this graph: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAYs/26q8mk1dT3M/s1600/PISA.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAY... You could also compare the relatively non-unionized US to more highly unionized Europe.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  The point is that you can easily have a functional education system with strong teachers unions. Canada, Europe, most of the western world functions this way. To say that our education woes are due to teachers unions is short-sighted at best. The issue with education in this country is in it's structure, funding, allocation, and methodology. Unions are a scapegoat for a larger philosophical failure in our approach to education. If people really cared about education in this country, they would look hard at how Finland moved away from the industrial model and towards one much more suited to an information economy.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    What educational woes? Our education system is top notch. http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... The issue is cost, not effectiveness. Do you disagree that unions are increasing costs? http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.h... As for Finland, their system only seems to work well for Finnish people. The gap in PISA scores between natives and immigrants (Gen 1 and 2, I believe) is almost 50 pts, vs about 20 in the US. This might work for Finland, with relatively few immigrants, but it wouldn't fly in a country like the US. (For comparison, the demographically corrected PISA gap between the US and Sweden is 19 pts in favor of the US.)
    - michaelchisari 16y ago
      I'm not interested in "correcting" for demographics. You can't simply remove 25% of the population because you find statistics inconvenient.
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        Hypothetical: if teacher A has a class of poor black students, and teacher B has a class of rich asian students, shall we directly compare test scores? If teacher A's students perform 1 stddev worse than teacher B's, shall we fire teacher A for poor performance? If you don't want to do it for teachers, why do it for educational systems?
        michaelchisari 16y ago
        I prefer not to reduce complex, intersecting systems to oversimplified hypotheticals.
        yummyfajitas 16y ago
        Huh? You want to ignore all factors relevant to the question except one (school quality), I try to introduce a second factor, and I'm oversimplifying? Please go look up the definition of "simple".
        michaelchisari 16y ago
        I'm sure that's how you see it, but the fact is, that the OP posited the idea that unions were incompatible with a healthy education system. There are simply too many counter-examples to that. Further, you've pushed the conversation into a discussion about race and class by way of an abstract hypothetical. From your posting history, I'm not really interested in having such a complex discussion with you.

Teachers unions haven't seem to hurt Finland (#1 in education), and auto unions haven't seem to hurt Germany. Theirs are much stronger than our respective unions.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Rather than selecting an outlier [1], lets compare two typical US states: Texas and Wisconsin. http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-ba... It seems the non-unionized teachers in Texas do considerably better than the unionized teachers in Wisconsin, particularly for minorities. [1] At least, according to this graph: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAYs/26q8mk1dT3M/s1600/PISA.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAY... You could also compare the relatively non-unionized US to more highly unionized Europe.

michaelchisari 16y ago
The point is that you can easily have a functional education system with strong teachers unions. Canada, Europe, most of the western world functions this way. To say that our education woes are due to teachers unions is short-sighted at best. The issue with education in this country is in it's structure, funding, allocation, and methodology. Unions are a scapegoat for a larger philosophical failure in our approach to education. If people really cared about education in this country, they would look hard at how Finland moved away from the industrial model and towards one much more suited to an information economy.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  What educational woes? Our education system is top notch. http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... The issue is cost, not effectiveness. Do you disagree that unions are increasing costs? http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.h... As for Finland, their system only seems to work well for Finnish people. The gap in PISA scores between natives and immigrants (Gen 1 and 2, I believe) is almost 50 pts, vs about 20 in the US. This might work for Finland, with relatively few immigrants, but it wouldn't fly in a country like the US. (For comparison, the demographically corrected PISA gap between the US and Sweden is 19 pts in favor of the US.)
  - michaelchisari 16y ago
    I'm not interested in "correcting" for demographics. You can't simply remove 25% of the population because you find statistics inconvenient.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Hypothetical: if teacher A has a class of poor black students, and teacher B has a class of rich asian students, shall we directly compare test scores? If teacher A's students perform 1 stddev worse than teacher B's, shall we fire teacher A for poor performance? If you don't want to do it for teachers, why do it for educational systems?
      - michaelchisari 16y ago
        I prefer not to reduce complex, intersecting systems to oversimplified hypotheticals.
        yummyfajitas 16y ago
        Huh? You want to ignore all factors relevant to the question except one (school quality), I try to introduce a second factor, and I'm oversimplifying? Please go look up the definition of "simple".
        michaelchisari 16y ago
        I'm sure that's how you see it, but the fact is, that the OP posited the idea that unions were incompatible with a healthy education system. There are simply too many counter-examples to that. Further, you've pushed the conversation into a discussion about race and class by way of an abstract hypothetical. From your posting history, I'm not really interested in having such a complex discussion with you.