8 ms·

What interests me the most is not so much the #1 oldest, but more those cities where the past is still visible, or the city is similar to the same one that stoo

What interests me the most is not so much the #1 oldest, but more those cities where the past is still visible, or the city is similar to the same one that stood there thousands of years ago. Specifically, I find Yerevan very interesting. If someone from 2,000 years ago stood there today, they'd certainly realize it was the same city: the same Mount Ararat towering over the city, the same river Hrazdan running by the city, the name is pronounced very similar (pronounced Erebuni vs. now pronounced Erevan.) If you traveled a bit forward in time, to 400-something CE, then a modern inhabitant of Yerevan could even read the ancient writing in the city! Compare that with cities like Puning, China (to quote Wikipedia: "The history of human settlement in Puning can be traced back to the Neolithic Age".) Rich history, but I guarantee that someone from 2,000 years ago would have no idea where they are. (That's certainly not all of China, though, many places haven't experienced that much change.) Anyone know more of these cities, where it'd be obvious to the ancient inhabitants that it was the same city?

namdnay 7y ago
Rome?
ddeville 7y ago
Rome, Jerusalem, Athens, maybe Istanbul.
- dmurray 7y ago
  Giza?
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Quite a few of the cities of Ancient Greece and its colonies have survived to this day. Obviously Athens and many places in Greece but not only. For example in France, Marseille and Nice (both Greek colonies) are 2,600 and 2,300 years old, respectively. The first inhabitants would definitely recognise them immediately today from the unique landscape (like Yerevan). As for Puning, it's not so much related to China's recent changes but to the landscape. Mountains are unique and don't change much or at all in 2,000 years. But in a plain there is nothing to distinguish the landscape apart from buildings.
- owenversteeg 7y ago
  Mm, but it's not just the towering Mount Ararat and the river of Hrazdan that make Yerevan obviously Yerevan. The name of the city has remained extremely similar for about 2,000 years, the language, the writing... Nice, in my opinion (I've only been there twice) has very little connection to the Nice of old. The geography is not very unique (travel the Mediterranean coast and I promise you you'll find plenty of places that look nearly identical.) It's cycled through plenty of languages and was even originally 2 different cities (Cemenelum and Nikaia.) Put an occupant of Cemenelum in modern day Nice and I doubt they would know it was the same place. The once large river Paillon is dried to a part of what it once was and covered up by concrete; the language is completely different (and has changed many times) - hell, Nice wasn't even part of France until the late 1800s! In Marseille, sure, an ancient inhabitant would recognize it due to the islands if nothing else. But as much as I love Marseille (one of my favorite places in the world, actually) - I get much less of an "ancient" feeling there than anywhere in Armenia or Iran, for example.
  - Bayart 7y ago
    >I get much less of an "ancient" feeling there than anywhere in Armenia or Iran, for example. All the old town was blown up with dynamite within a few days during the 1940's...
    - owenversteeg 7y ago
      Yeah, and it shows. Marseille feels more old fashioned, romantic, 1960s. If you take the TGV from Paris to Nice, Marseille is where you meet the beautiful Mediterranean and the train slows from 320km/h down to an average of 57 km/h. Yerevan feels like 70% 1970s Soviet life, 20% ancient civilization, and 10% 2050 futurism. I'd love to find more places like it.
  - jgwil2 7y ago
    Language is constantly changing. No one alive 2000 years ago would be able to readily communicate in a modern vernacular, so I don't think that's a good standard on which to judge.
netcan 7y ago
Jericho might interest you then. It's an oasis city, with a very distinctive view of surrounding hills. The most ancient structures are from 9kya, and the city existed in a lot of forms since that point. I believe the current city streets are from the Roman period, and probably date to the iron age or older. What fascinates me about the site is the architectural similarity between the oldest city (the 9kya, neolithic city) and Çatalhöyük of the same period. These are the oldest known cities, and predate the oldest known "empires" by a lot. This hints at a neolithic (and perhaps even ice age) cultural exchange over very large distances.
- cultus 7y ago
  Jericho even had town walls complete with a tower at 9kya. Absolutely astonishing, because they were even pre-pottery.
- dwohnitmok 7y ago
  According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho it looks like the city has moved around a bit (not a huge amount, but a few kilometers) over time. It looks like the modern city's location was finally decided in the 4th century AD. Also it seems to have been razed and rebuilt quite a few times. Given that many structures from the Byzantine period had to be excavated (as in they were buried beneath the ground), I suspect the current city streets are quite a bit younger than dating from the Romans.
DictumMortuum 7y ago
Born and raised Athenian here, oldest capital of Europe. Downtown Athens and most of the suburbs are filled with ancient and byzantine ruins, despite the damage that wars, christians and muslims did. I've watched plays in millennia old theaters. This is damn powerful.
- notahacker 7y ago
  Even in Athens I can imagine an ancient inhabitant being lost and confused amongst a grid of midrise concrete buildings. Then they'd turn a corner and catch a glimpse of the Acropolis... London, sort of continuously inhabited since Roman times, wouldn't pass the test even if an ancient Roman inhabitant was standing on a street following the line of a Roman road and looking direct at the foundations of the London wall. Even the river course would be unfamiliar.
- y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
  Slightly off topic, but playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey brought out an infatuation with Greece within me. I am truly envious of your Greek heritage and that you get to enjoy such a rich history, a relatively secular society, and gorgeous scenic areas. I am actually Persian and although we also have a rich history and scenic lands, I find Greece and Greek history far more appealing. Getting to explore many facets of ancient Greece in Assassin's Creed Odyssey has been an absolute treat. EDIT: a word
  - elorant 7y ago
    Well heritage is a double edged sword. From one hand you do feel proud and blessed to live in a place so rich in history because it's everywhere around you. But in the same time it's kind of a burden that drags society in worshiping the past. A lot of fellow Greeks live on the premises that because our past was so glorious everyone else is dipshit and we shouldn't even bother finding our place in the modern world.
    - carlob 7y ago
      Well said! I would also like to add that history is also (in part) a construct of the times you live in. Greece post-1830 looks back at the ancient times while all but forgetting the centuries of Ottoman rule that also shaped the current culture (especially cuisine). Bulgaria, while having a similar history (the Thracians instead of the Greek and Macedonians, also Orthodox, also Ottoman) prefer to trace their mythical history back to the Bulgarians of the Volga rather than calling ancient Thracia the cradle of Western Civilization. I'm from Italy and here we are taught a linear history shooting like a bullet from the Romans to Renaissance (mostly glossing over the Middle Ages), and that has important political consequences in what it means to identify as an Italian. In other words one can say that history, as it is taught in school, is instrumental in constructing a national identity and as such it is wielded as a tool by the political and cultural élites.
chr1 7y ago
With your criterion cities on mountainous regions have a bit of unfair advantage. Another Armenian city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van,_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van,_Turkey, which is older than Yerevan, would match it too, but it's not included in the list on wikipedia. (Maybe because a large part of Van have been ruined and left uninhabited in ~1920s).
a_bonobo 7y ago
Trier on that list still has a lot of Roman architecture standing around, a time-traveling Roman would have no problem finding their way. One of the city gates still stands, the throne hall of Roman Emperor Constantine (Basilica), the Amphitheater ruins, the large Roman baths (ruins), even the large Dome is built on top a structure Emperor Constantine built.
Giorgi 7y ago
Yeah, Georgia has way better artifacts than Armenia, for example: Vani, Mtskheta, Kutaisi, etc. For some reason Poti is missing from the list too.
- owenversteeg 7y ago
  Way better? I spent a week in both Georgia and Armenia recently and although I think the two counties are some of the coolest places I've been I found Armenia to be more interesting. That may have been because I had a local guide in Armenia though. (I like to travel with Couchsurfing as you get to meet and stay with locals, and for whatever reason Georgia is the only country I've visited where I couldn't find a host.) In particular, I spent a day in Kutaisi and although it was a lovely little place I didn't find it super interesting. I'll definitely be back though, I hadn't heard of Mtskheta and it seems really interesting, I'd like to check it out. I assume you're Georgian, from the name :) Any other places you'd suggest to visit in Georgia? I personally prefer the really unusual/out of the way stuff myself.
  - Giorgi 7y ago
    I would recommend Vardzia (Cave city), Mestia for Svan towers and obviously Tbilisi sulfur baths, as for Kutaisi, go to Sataplia Nature Reserve.
lunaru 7y ago
Xi'an (on this list as one of the oldest cities) has a fully preserved (but often refurbished) city wall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortifications_of_Xi%27an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortifications_of_Xi%27an It's complete so you can still walk the entire 4 sides of the wall in one hike, or rent a bike and circle the entire city in ~1 hour or so. When you're atop the city wall, there's definitely a sense of being in two different times, both ancient and modern, at the same time as the modern Xi'an skyline makes up the background while you trek on stones that are hundreds (thousands?) of years old.
- magicsmoke 7y ago
  The current Xi'an walls were built in the 1370 during the Ming dynasty.
noobdood 7y ago
Madurai in Tamil Nadu state, India, may be one, I think - partly. Area of lanes around the Meenakshi temple probably look somewhat like they must have n000+ years ago. Flower, idli, dosa, parotta, sari, clothes, etc. shops, knick knacks, man-powered rickshaws, tame temple elephants blessing humans with trunks, etc.
notechback 7y ago
It's a funny table. A mix of historic record (indicating eg most of the Greek cities) Vs archeological evidence of some kind of habitation Vs some myth/oral history. Overall very arbitrary what is and is not considered a city or at starting point.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
> Anyone know more of these cities, where it'd be obvious to the ancient inhabitants that it was the same city? According to your definition if there are recognizable major natural landmarks ( "Mount Ararat", "river Hrazdan" ), then it means nothing has changed since people in the past would recognize it and be able to place themselves. So using your logic, any city near a major mountain, river, etc would be recognizable. So tokyo ( visible from Mt Fuji ) hasn't changed, manhattan hasn't changed ( hudson/east rivers ), seattle hasn't changed ( Mt Rainier ), etc.
- philwelch 7y ago
  Mt. Rainier is only visible from Seattle on exceptionally clear days.
  - dlgeek 7y ago
    I'd say it's visible from Seattle on any clear day, it's just clear days are exceptional (outside of summers). It's out most of the summer.
ivanhoe 7y ago
Well, Belgrade is not nearly that old as Yerevan, although in its broader area were some of the oldest settlements in Europe, more than 7000 years old. However todays Belgrade fortress (called Kalemegdan) sits on the very same place where Celts built their fortification around 300 BC. In 2nd century BC Romans turned it into their city called Singidunum. Most of the today's fortress walls are from the medieval and later times, but some parts of the Roman walls are still visible today, and the big Roman well that was used to supply the city with water still exists and it's open to tourists. Unfortunately most of the roman structures outside the fortress are nowadays under the modern city of Belgrade, but the position and the layout of the fortress didn't change much. Danube and Sava rivers still run under it and the hill looks the same, so I presume that some ancient tourists wouldn't have hard time to recognize it immediately.
205guy 7y ago
My favorite in this category is Damascus. What makes it special is that the old city is mentioned in the Bible, including the "street called Straight." That street still exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Street On a tangent: I love it when an article shows up on HN that is already greyed out, meaning I've seen it before.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
Acoma is still very much like that. They now have a road so you don't have to hike up the mountain to get to it, but not much else has changed in 2000 years. It's a wonderful place to visit any time but especially on Christmas Eve. [0] Santa Fe also nearby and on the list but it's quite a bit more modern. Still it's the oldest capital city in the continental US. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Pueblo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Pueblo

namdnay 7y ago

Rome?

ddeville 7y ago

Rome, Jerusalem, Athens, maybe Istanbul.

dmurray 7y ago
Giza?

mytailorisrich 7y ago

Quite a few of the cities of Ancient Greece and its colonies have survived to this day. Obviously Athens and many places in Greece but not only. For example in France, Marseille and Nice (both Greek colonies) are 2,600 and 2,300 years old, respectively. The first inhabitants would definitely recognise them immediately today from the unique landscape (like Yerevan). As for Puning, it's not so much related to China's recent changes but to the landscape. Mountains are unique and don't change much or at all in 2,000 years. But in a plain there is nothing to distinguish the landscape apart from buildings.

owenversteeg 7y ago
Mm, but it's not just the towering Mount Ararat and the river of Hrazdan that make Yerevan obviously Yerevan. The name of the city has remained extremely similar for about 2,000 years, the language, the writing... Nice, in my opinion (I've only been there twice) has very little connection to the Nice of old. The geography is not very unique (travel the Mediterranean coast and I promise you you'll find plenty of places that look nearly identical.) It's cycled through plenty of languages and was even originally 2 different cities (Cemenelum and Nikaia.) Put an occupant of Cemenelum in modern day Nice and I doubt they would know it was the same place. The once large river Paillon is dried to a part of what it once was and covered up by concrete; the language is completely different (and has changed many times) - hell, Nice wasn't even part of France until the late 1800s! In Marseille, sure, an ancient inhabitant would recognize it due to the islands if nothing else. But as much as I love Marseille (one of my favorite places in the world, actually) - I get much less of an "ancient" feeling there than anywhere in Armenia or Iran, for example.
- Bayart 7y ago
  >I get much less of an "ancient" feeling there than anywhere in Armenia or Iran, for example. All the old town was blown up with dynamite within a few days during the 1940's...
  - owenversteeg 7y ago
    Yeah, and it shows. Marseille feels more old fashioned, romantic, 1960s. If you take the TGV from Paris to Nice, Marseille is where you meet the beautiful Mediterranean and the train slows from 320km/h down to an average of 57 km/h. Yerevan feels like 70% 1970s Soviet life, 20% ancient civilization, and 10% 2050 futurism. I'd love to find more places like it.
- jgwil2 7y ago
  Language is constantly changing. No one alive 2000 years ago would be able to readily communicate in a modern vernacular, so I don't think that's a good standard on which to judge.

netcan 7y ago

Jericho might interest you then. It's an oasis city, with a very distinctive view of surrounding hills. The most ancient structures are from 9kya, and the city existed in a lot of forms since that point. I believe the current city streets are from the Roman period, and probably date to the iron age or older. What fascinates me about the site is the architectural similarity between the oldest city (the 9kya, neolithic city) and Çatalhöyük of the same period. These are the oldest known cities, and predate the oldest known "empires" by a lot. This hints at a neolithic (and perhaps even ice age) cultural exchange over very large distances.

cultus 7y ago
Jericho even had town walls complete with a tower at 9kya. Absolutely astonishing, because they were even pre-pottery.
dwohnitmok 7y ago
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho it looks like the city has moved around a bit (not a huge amount, but a few kilometers) over time. It looks like the modern city's location was finally decided in the 4th century AD. Also it seems to have been razed and rebuilt quite a few times. Given that many structures from the Byzantine period had to be excavated (as in they were buried beneath the ground), I suspect the current city streets are quite a bit younger than dating from the Romans.

DictumMortuum 7y ago

Born and raised Athenian here, oldest capital of Europe. Downtown Athens and most of the suburbs are filled with ancient and byzantine ruins, despite the damage that wars, christians and muslims did. I've watched plays in millennia old theaters. This is damn powerful.

notahacker 7y ago
Even in Athens I can imagine an ancient inhabitant being lost and confused amongst a grid of midrise concrete buildings. Then they'd turn a corner and catch a glimpse of the Acropolis... London, sort of continuously inhabited since Roman times, wouldn't pass the test even if an ancient Roman inhabitant was standing on a street following the line of a Roman road and looking direct at the foundations of the London wall. Even the river course would be unfamiliar.
y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
Slightly off topic, but playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey brought out an infatuation with Greece within me. I am truly envious of your Greek heritage and that you get to enjoy such a rich history, a relatively secular society, and gorgeous scenic areas. I am actually Persian and although we also have a rich history and scenic lands, I find Greece and Greek history far more appealing. Getting to explore many facets of ancient Greece in Assassin's Creed Odyssey has been an absolute treat. EDIT: a word
- elorant 7y ago
  Well heritage is a double edged sword. From one hand you do feel proud and blessed to live in a place so rich in history because it's everywhere around you. But in the same time it's kind of a burden that drags society in worshiping the past. A lot of fellow Greeks live on the premises that because our past was so glorious everyone else is dipshit and we shouldn't even bother finding our place in the modern world.
  - carlob 7y ago
    Well said! I would also like to add that history is also (in part) a construct of the times you live in. Greece post-1830 looks back at the ancient times while all but forgetting the centuries of Ottoman rule that also shaped the current culture (especially cuisine). Bulgaria, while having a similar history (the Thracians instead of the Greek and Macedonians, also Orthodox, also Ottoman) prefer to trace their mythical history back to the Bulgarians of the Volga rather than calling ancient Thracia the cradle of Western Civilization. I'm from Italy and here we are taught a linear history shooting like a bullet from the Romans to Renaissance (mostly glossing over the Middle Ages), and that has important political consequences in what it means to identify as an Italian. In other words one can say that history, as it is taught in school, is instrumental in constructing a national identity and as such it is wielded as a tool by the political and cultural élites.

chr1 7y ago

With your criterion cities on mountainous regions have a bit of unfair advantage. Another Armenian city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van,_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van,_Turkey, which is older than Yerevan, would match it too, but it's not included in the list on wikipedia. (Maybe because a large part of Van have been ruined and left uninhabited in ~1920s).

a_bonobo 7y ago

Trier on that list still has a lot of Roman architecture standing around, a time-traveling Roman would have no problem finding their way. One of the city gates still stands, the throne hall of Roman Emperor Constantine (Basilica), the Amphitheater ruins, the large Roman baths (ruins), even the large Dome is built on top a structure Emperor Constantine built.

Giorgi 7y ago

Yeah, Georgia has way better artifacts than Armenia, for example: Vani, Mtskheta, Kutaisi, etc. For some reason Poti is missing from the list too.

owenversteeg 7y ago
Way better? I spent a week in both Georgia and Armenia recently and although I think the two counties are some of the coolest places I've been I found Armenia to be more interesting. That may have been because I had a local guide in Armenia though. (I like to travel with Couchsurfing as you get to meet and stay with locals, and for whatever reason Georgia is the only country I've visited where I couldn't find a host.) In particular, I spent a day in Kutaisi and although it was a lovely little place I didn't find it super interesting. I'll definitely be back though, I hadn't heard of Mtskheta and it seems really interesting, I'd like to check it out. I assume you're Georgian, from the name :) Any other places you'd suggest to visit in Georgia? I personally prefer the really unusual/out of the way stuff myself.
- Giorgi 7y ago
  I would recommend Vardzia (Cave city), Mestia for Svan towers and obviously Tbilisi sulfur baths, as for Kutaisi, go to Sataplia Nature Reserve.

lunaru 7y ago

Xi'an (on this list as one of the oldest cities) has a fully preserved (but often refurbished) city wall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortifications_of_Xi%27an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortifications_of_Xi%27an It's complete so you can still walk the entire 4 sides of the wall in one hike, or rent a bike and circle the entire city in ~1 hour or so. When you're atop the city wall, there's definitely a sense of being in two different times, both ancient and modern, at the same time as the modern Xi'an skyline makes up the background while you trek on stones that are hundreds (thousands?) of years old.

magicsmoke 7y ago
The current Xi'an walls were built in the 1370 during the Ming dynasty.

noobdood 7y ago

Madurai in Tamil Nadu state, India, may be one, I think - partly. Area of lanes around the Meenakshi temple probably look somewhat like they must have n000+ years ago. Flower, idli, dosa, parotta, sari, clothes, etc. shops, knick knacks, man-powered rickshaws, tame temple elephants blessing humans with trunks, etc.

notechback 7y ago

It's a funny table. A mix of historic record (indicating eg most of the Greek cities) Vs archeological evidence of some kind of habitation Vs some myth/oral history. Overall very arbitrary what is and is not considered a city or at starting point.

dntbnmpls 7y ago

> Anyone know more of these cities, where it'd be obvious to the ancient inhabitants that it was the same city? According to your definition if there are recognizable major natural landmarks ( "Mount Ararat", "river Hrazdan" ), then it means nothing has changed since people in the past would recognize it and be able to place themselves. So using your logic, any city near a major mountain, river, etc would be recognizable. So tokyo ( visible from Mt Fuji ) hasn't changed, manhattan hasn't changed ( hudson/east rivers ), seattle hasn't changed ( Mt Rainier ), etc.

philwelch 7y ago
Mt. Rainier is only visible from Seattle on exceptionally clear days.
- dlgeek 7y ago
  I'd say it's visible from Seattle on any clear day, it's just clear days are exceptional (outside of summers). It's out most of the summer.

ivanhoe 7y ago

Well, Belgrade is not nearly that old as Yerevan, although in its broader area were some of the oldest settlements in Europe, more than 7000 years old. However todays Belgrade fortress (called Kalemegdan) sits on the very same place where Celts built their fortification around 300 BC. In 2nd century BC Romans turned it into their city called Singidunum. Most of the today's fortress walls are from the medieval and later times, but some parts of the Roman walls are still visible today, and the big Roman well that was used to supply the city with water still exists and it's open to tourists. Unfortunately most of the roman structures outside the fortress are nowadays under the modern city of Belgrade, but the position and the layout of the fortress didn't change much. Danube and Sava rivers still run under it and the hill looks the same, so I presume that some ancient tourists wouldn't have hard time to recognize it immediately.

205guy 7y ago

My favorite in this category is Damascus. What makes it special is that the old city is mentioned in the Bible, including the "street called Straight." That street still exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Street On a tangent: I love it when an article shows up on HN that is already greyed out, meaning I've seen it before.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

Acoma is still very much like that. They now have a road so you don't have to hike up the mountain to get to it, but not much else has changed in 2000 years. It's a wonderful place to visit any time but especially on Christmas Eve. [0] Santa Fe also nearby and on the list but it's quite a bit more modern. Still it's the oldest capital city in the continental US. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Pueblo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Pueblo