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I just don't get the way this narrative is washing over the entire PPP program and most of the posts here don't match my personal, direct first hand experience.

by CPLX 7y ago

I just don't get the way this narrative is washing over the entire PPP program and most of the posts here don't match my personal, direct first hand experience. The program has been a bit of a mess, but it seems to be broadly functioning as intended, aside from the running out of money part. I was involved in two business applications, both for very modest sums of money, five figures in both cases, and while it was a little stressful and so on with all the news, and difficulty getting updates from the banks, both were successful and it was not particularly complicated to do. One loan came from a giant top 5 bank, one from a niche bank, and in neither case was there any special access or connections of any kind. Just regular old open up a small business account by walking into a branch stuff, and applying as an absolute nobody. So it was possible. And this whole thing about the chain restaurants, while a little frustrating maybe, is still something squarely within the lines of the law as written. The law was supposed to support paychecks, not companies, and it's pretty obvious restaurant workers are heavily affected. Maybe they shouldn't have modified the chain rules, but they did. I agree there probably should have been a restriction on larger companies, like publicly traded ones, but somehow this idea has taken over that this is where all the money went. They wrote over a million loans, and as far as I can tell from actual data driven journalism the vast majority of them went to businesses that basically fit into the goals of the program. Yet, everyone's talking about Shake Shack for some reason. I feel like this is just another brand of the usual idiocy around means testing in public policy, which inevitably just adds complexity and drags the whole system down. The PPP program strikes me as one of the most useful parts of all the bailout efforts and it should be praised and expanded for the most part. If you're mad about big business focus on what the Fed is doing with junk bonds and private equity debt. That shit is where the fucking crime is going on.

dannyw 7y ago
74% of PPP loans went to big businesses. 7 4 %. For a program designed for small businesses, it's not okay. It's complete and total failure, and not a single dollar should be funded without fixing the systematic problems. Imagine if the government lost 74c of every $1 paid in Medicare to billing fraud? Would that be a good program? Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-house-gop-face-heat-after-hotel-restaurant-chains-helped-run-small-business-program-dry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-hou...
- CPLX 7y ago
  First of all you're just misquoting the article, it says 74% of the loans went to small businesses and here's the quote: "The vast majority of these loans — 74 percent of them — were for under $150,000" But whatever the figure the analogy is still nonsensical. The program was designed for the companies it was designed for. The plain language letter of the law explains who was supposed to get it. The better analogy for what you're saying was "Imagine if the government send 26 cents of every $1 to people that were plainly eligible for Medicare, but who I don't think should have been" which is another thing entirely. There's no allegations of fraud here. And as someone with direct first hand experience of being involved with tiny businesses for whom this program was an utter lifesaver, I start out naturally skeptical of this narrative. The problem with the program has been that it wasn't funded enough. And that it was a mess at first and banks were bad a communication about it. But frankly I think we should be expanding and extending the program, not pretending it's something that it plainly is not.
- jwin742 7y ago
  Are you reading your source correctly? “The vast majority of these loans — 74 percent of them — were for under $150,000, demonstrating the accessibility of this program to even the smallest of small businesses,” Mnuchin said. He told CNN on Sunday that an additional $300 billion “should be sufficient to reach almost everybody.”
DangitBobby 7y ago
I'm happy for you that you got two loans. We don't have a ton of staff and by the time we got our application fully filled out, all the money was gone. Less than 48 hours later. Seems like our story is the norm. How are you not understanding that?
- CPLX 7y ago
  I understand it completely. That's why I think they should add more money to the program and do more of it. The narrative in this article and most of the discussion is that it was a failure and we shouldn't have done it. I disagree. Also follow up on your application now, the program was just funded again. Get the money, keep your payroll up and help your team keep their jobs. That's what it's for, and if you finished your application the program is likely to help you very shortly.
  - zaphod4prez 7y ago
    The program is not re-funded yet. The bill has not been signed into law. (see "lapsed appropriations" on this page: https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program-ppp https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relie... I am reading the narrative very differently. You think people are saying there shouldn't have been any bill like this? People are saying that the bill has failed to help small businesses. Which is just a fact.
    - CPLX 7y ago
      Fair enough. With that said I think the funds will be replenished in the next day or three. But I think "the bill has failed to help small businesses" is not accurate at all. It has failed to help enough small businesses.
      - ubu7737 7y ago
        > It has failed to help enough small businesses. ... in large part because publicly-traded businesses have scooped up the funding.
zaphod4prez 7y ago
Sorry but your experience is vastly different from the experience of the vast majority of people. The program is out of money and about 75% of applicants are still waiting (& won't be getting their money). Almost all of those who haven't received funds are just... screwed. I personally know 3 small business owners who applied w/in a few days of the program being announced whose banks did not submit their app to the SBA before funding ran out. One of them already wasn't able to meet payroll, another one is giving her 2 employees her entire paycheck in order to keep the business alive. Basically, you got incredibly lucky. I literally have no idea how you could be friends with other small biz owners and not realize that this program is an utter failure. Editing to add source: https://vermontbiz.com/news/2020/april/20/nfib-80-percent-ppp-loan-applicants-still-waiting-funds https://vermontbiz.com/news/2020/april/20/nfib-80-percent-pp...
- CPLX 7y ago
  I agree with everything you're saying. It's a failure because it needs much more money added to it because it was so popular and is so desperately needed right now. The narrative I've seen in all the press is that's it's a failure because it all went to Shake Shack and others who didn't deserve it which I think is a confusing distortion of what's actually going on here.
  - ubu7737 7y ago
    > The narrative I've seen in all the press is that's it's a failure because it all went to Shake Shack and others who didn't deserve it Where have you seen that narrative? I think you have created your own easily-defeated strawman for the sake of argument.
pwned1 7y ago
I'm an attorney and I assisted five companies with PPP applications. Three of them were with Chase. Those three all applied immediately upon Chase opening up the application process. The loans were "processed" in descending order in terms of the amount asked for, NOT in the order in which they were submitted. None of the requests was over $200,000. All three were still "in process" when the money ran out, over a week after the applications were entered. Those three clients are stuck, hoping that their applications will be funded when the additional funding is approved. The two that I assisted with that were not with chase were with a local credit union. Both were submitted only a day before the money ran out and both were approved and have been funded. Something clearly went wrong at Chase.
- CPLX 7y ago
  Fair enough, and to the extent this article is focused on Chase specifically perhaps my comment is attached to the wrong HN discussion, and should apply more broadly to the general PPP conversation, which has seemed a little confused this week.
coleca 7y ago
You're correct. The whole point of the PPP program, which people seem to be missing, is the program is to act as a buffer in front of the unemployment system. The Feds are basically front running unemployment claims by 8 weeks by giving 'free money' to businesses to pay their employees for another 8 weeks. The taxpayers are going to pay for this whether it is big business that got the funds or small businesses. It's either through this program or via the overwhelmed unemployment system.

by CPLX 7y ago

dannyw 7y ago

74% of PPP loans went to big businesses. 7 4 %. For a program designed for small businesses, it's not okay. It's complete and total failure, and not a single dollar should be funded without fixing the systematic problems. Imagine if the government lost 74c of every $1 paid in Medicare to billing fraud? Would that be a good program? Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-house-gop-face-heat-after-hotel-restaurant-chains-helped-run-small-business-program-dry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-hou...

CPLX 7y ago
First of all you're just misquoting the article, it says 74% of the loans went to small businesses and here's the quote: "The vast majority of these loans — 74 percent of them — were for under $150,000" But whatever the figure the analogy is still nonsensical. The program was designed for the companies it was designed for. The plain language letter of the law explains who was supposed to get it. The better analogy for what you're saying was "Imagine if the government send 26 cents of every $1 to people that were plainly eligible for Medicare, but who I don't think should have been" which is another thing entirely. There's no allegations of fraud here. And as someone with direct first hand experience of being involved with tiny businesses for whom this program was an utter lifesaver, I start out naturally skeptical of this narrative. The problem with the program has been that it wasn't funded enough. And that it was a mess at first and banks were bad a communication about it. But frankly I think we should be expanding and extending the program, not pretending it's something that it plainly is not.
jwin742 7y ago
Are you reading your source correctly? “The vast majority of these loans — 74 percent of them — were for under $150,000, demonstrating the accessibility of this program to even the smallest of small businesses,” Mnuchin said. He told CNN on Sunday that an additional $300 billion “should be sufficient to reach almost everybody.”

DangitBobby 7y ago

I'm happy for you that you got two loans. We don't have a ton of staff and by the time we got our application fully filled out, all the money was gone. Less than 48 hours later. Seems like our story is the norm. How are you not understanding that?

CPLX 7y ago
I understand it completely. That's why I think they should add more money to the program and do more of it. The narrative in this article and most of the discussion is that it was a failure and we shouldn't have done it. I disagree. Also follow up on your application now, the program was just funded again. Get the money, keep your payroll up and help your team keep their jobs. That's what it's for, and if you finished your application the program is likely to help you very shortly.
- zaphod4prez 7y ago
  The program is not re-funded yet. The bill has not been signed into law. (see "lapsed appropriations" on this page: https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program-ppp https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relie... I am reading the narrative very differently. You think people are saying there shouldn't have been any bill like this? People are saying that the bill has failed to help small businesses. Which is just a fact.
  - CPLX 7y ago
    Fair enough. With that said I think the funds will be replenished in the next day or three. But I think "the bill has failed to help small businesses" is not accurate at all. It has failed to help enough small businesses.
    - ubu7737 7y ago
      > It has failed to help enough small businesses. ... in large part because publicly-traded businesses have scooped up the funding.

zaphod4prez 7y ago

Sorry but your experience is vastly different from the experience of the vast majority of people. The program is out of money and about 75% of applicants are still waiting (& won't be getting their money). Almost all of those who haven't received funds are just... screwed. I personally know 3 small business owners who applied w/in a few days of the program being announced whose banks did not submit their app to the SBA before funding ran out. One of them already wasn't able to meet payroll, another one is giving her 2 employees her entire paycheck in order to keep the business alive. Basically, you got incredibly lucky. I literally have no idea how you could be friends with other small biz owners and not realize that this program is an utter failure. Editing to add source: https://vermontbiz.com/news/2020/april/20/nfib-80-percent-ppp-loan-applicants-still-waiting-funds https://vermontbiz.com/news/2020/april/20/nfib-80-percent-pp...

CPLX 7y ago
I agree with everything you're saying. It's a failure because it needs much more money added to it because it was so popular and is so desperately needed right now. The narrative I've seen in all the press is that's it's a failure because it all went to Shake Shack and others who didn't deserve it which I think is a confusing distortion of what's actually going on here.
- ubu7737 7y ago
  > The narrative I've seen in all the press is that's it's a failure because it all went to Shake Shack and others who didn't deserve it Where have you seen that narrative? I think you have created your own easily-defeated strawman for the sake of argument.

pwned1 7y ago

I'm an attorney and I assisted five companies with PPP applications. Three of them were with Chase. Those three all applied immediately upon Chase opening up the application process. The loans were "processed" in descending order in terms of the amount asked for, NOT in the order in which they were submitted. None of the requests was over $200,000. All three were still "in process" when the money ran out, over a week after the applications were entered. Those three clients are stuck, hoping that their applications will be funded when the additional funding is approved. The two that I assisted with that were not with chase were with a local credit union. Both were submitted only a day before the money ran out and both were approved and have been funded. Something clearly went wrong at Chase.

CPLX 7y ago
Fair enough, and to the extent this article is focused on Chase specifically perhaps my comment is attached to the wrong HN discussion, and should apply more broadly to the general PPP conversation, which has seemed a little confused this week.

coleca 7y ago

You're correct. The whole point of the PPP program, which people seem to be missing, is the program is to act as a buffer in front of the unemployment system. The Feds are basically front running unemployment claims by 8 weeks by giving 'free money' to businesses to pay their employees for another 8 weeks. The taxpayers are going to pay for this whether it is big business that got the funds or small businesses. It's either through this program or via the overwhelmed unemployment system.