4 ms·

I have stopped reading what Vivek writes. It almost feels like he's writing inflammatory articles just to keep his name in print. I came to this country (US) m

by ajays 16y ago

I have stopped reading what Vivek writes. It almost feels like he's writing inflammatory articles just to keep his name in print. I came to this country (US) more than 20 years ago. The I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) were as big dicks then as they are now. Nothing has changed. It's just plain old government bureaucracy; but in this instance, their clients can't vote either, so there's no fear of a backlash. And yet, despite the INS's dickitude, the country churns out startups like crazy. Why did the founder of Chatroulette move here, instead of China or India? I'll give you why: pound for pound, it is way easier to come to America, register your startup and get rolling than in any other country, bar none. (Aside: do read DeSoto's "The Mystery of Capital" if you get a chance). Heck, why is Vivek Wadhwa in this country? Why isn't he in India, if things are so great there? I'll tell you why: because when all is said and done, there is NO country on earth as welcoming and safe for immigrants as the USA, bar none. I have friends who've gone back to India. Most of them went for a variety of reasons; chiefly among them being family. And I also know some who went back because their H1B visas expired; but you know what? It is good to see that. Just like seeds from a flower spread far and wide with the wind, I hope the seeds of entrepreneurship spread far and wide; the world needs more entrepreneurs. Silicon Valley has more than enough.

recoiledsnake 16y ago
>I came to this country (US) more than 20 years ago. The I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) were as big dicks then as they are now. Okay... so...? Did you wait 10 years for a Green Card while in immigration limbo? Do you even know the difference between then and now? >And yet, despite the INS's dickitude, the country churns out startups like crazy. So enough is enough? Will more hurt, esp with 10% unemployment? Maybe we should shutdown some VCs as well, since there are enough startups. AFAIK the Chatroulette founder was on a temp visa and was exploring options for a longer term visa. Can you reference how he 'moved' here? >And I also know some who went back because their H1B visas expired; but you know what? It is good to see that. Just like seeds from a flower spread far and wide with the wind, I hope the seeds of entrepreneurship spread far and wide; the worlds needs more entrepreneurs. Silicon Valley has more than enough. Your argument doesn't make sense. According to you the US/Silicon Valley is the best place to breed startups.. but you want the potential founders to go elsewhere where they might not have the best chances. Does not compute.
- tptacek 16y ago
  He's saying two things: First, that it's hard to take seriously the idea that inept immigration policies are creating a real threat to the US, because it's still so far ahead of the curve on entrepreneurship. Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries. It would be a good thing for the world if there was more entrepeneurship everywhere, not just where there is the least friction to practicing it.
  - cooldeal 16y ago
    >Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries. Restrictions on a work visa holder: 1) Your spouse cannot work at all unless she qualifies and obtains a specialized H1 herself/himself 2) If you get fired on a Friday, you're technically out of status from a legal point from Saturday and must leave immediately regardless of spouse,rent leases, homes, cars, pets, kids, kids' schools, personal property etc. 3) You and your spouse and kids cannot have any supplemental active income. This rules out selling photographs on stock photo sites, phone apps, etc. You can basically do nothing productive that earns money outside your job. 4) If you move to a different job or even change roles, you have to reapply for the Green Card process from the scratch. Expect multiyear delays just to get back to where you were. 5) If you or your spouse wants to visit your home country or travel outside the country, expect to get stuck there for months for no good reasons. It has become so bad that immigration lawyers are advising not to travel internationally except for emergencies. You're basically stuck in the country. See one example: Consulate Location - MUMBAI Interview Date - 26 AUGUST 2010 Docs asked? - None Docs submitted? None Docs submitted Date - N/A Email Receipt Date - NOV 23, 2010 Passport Submission Date - same day as that of interview Passport Stamped/Received Date - RECEIVED WITHOUT STAMPING AFTER 15 DAYS RECEIVED 2ND EMAIL ON DEC 15, 2010 TO SUBMIT PASSPORT AGAIN RECEIVED MY PASSPORT WITHOUT STAMPING Waiting Since (in calendar days) - 170 DAYS Petition Details: Employer Type - AMERICAN , NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION Employer Size - more than 5,000 Assignment Type - DIRECT I-797 Approval Date - 01-JULY 2010 6) Processing of applications takes forever. You can be stuck without a driving license(no renewal) in some states while your extension is pending. Imagine having to go to work with no driving license. Paying an extra $1225 in no-delay fees can speed up the process in a few cases. Edit: 7) Taxes: You get to pay all the taxes including Social Security and Medicare(employers also have to match this) and state unemployment taxes(one won't see a cent of this because one is supposed to leave as soon as they're unemployed). There was a recent bill that increased the fee of some type of work visa applications by $2000 to fund... wait for it... the Mexican border security!
kansando 16y ago
I came to the US 20 years ago too and in my experience, the wait-times are nothing like what my employees from Indian and China face. I got a PhD in 6 years, then applied for a GC 2 years into my job and got my GC within 1 year. The total time was 9 years, which while long was nothing compared to the mess today. Fast forward to today. We have PhDs from Stanford and MIT whose application has been stuck since 2005, meaning even if you adjust for the 6+2 = 8 years to apply, the total time to GC will end up being more than 15-16 years at least. I should point out that the system specifically disadvantages Indians and Chinese relative to say Mexicans, Canadians and everyone else. This coincides with an increasing level of opportunity in these countries relative to 1991 in India. To compare the two is making a fact-free argument, since even in a rational scenario, the relative attractiveness of the US has diminished over time. I think asking that Vivek return to India is an unnecessary ad-hominem attack. There are many reasons that people choose to stay here including personal ones (wife, kids, etc. don't want to go back) not all of which are driven by relative opportunity.
ajju 16y ago
Wouldn't you have preferred to get your greencard in 2 or 3 years instead of 11? I know it would have made my life quite a bit easier as a co-founder. I would have started up 4 years earlier. The argument is not (yet) about whether the U.S. is a better place to start a startup than India or China. It clearly is. The argument is about whether it is worth America's while to make it easier for immigrants to start startups. It's hard to argue that for the right definition of a startup (legal, with a real chance of making money, scalable) it wouldn't be in America's interests to make it easier. In the worst case there's an immigrant who is not competing for "scarce jobs", in the best case he/she is creating jobs.* *O.K. I cheated - in the worst case fears of those against this idea, you have a non-productive individual immigrating here on the pretext of a startup and doing nothing/leeching off of society etc, but if you find a good enough 'qualifier' (e.g. Grad degree from the U.S. and/or V.C. investment a la startup visa) this kind of thing can be minimized to where it approaches zero.
intended 16y ago
Incorrect - Things HAVE changed. India did NOT have the same appreciation for tech 20 years ago. Today it does. Friends who are 20-25 are coming back here and setting up clones of workable ideas. They are learning what needs to be done and what the opportunity is over here. They KNOW what good code is, they know what high quality means, and they ARE building it here again. They will build it from scratch if they have to. America did NOT compete for talent like it has to now. Yes the seeds of entrepreneurship will spread far and wide. The topic at hand is to make them bloom in America.

by ajays 16y ago

recoiledsnake 16y ago

>I came to this country (US) more than 20 years ago. The I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) were as big dicks then as they are now. Okay... so...? Did you wait 10 years for a Green Card while in immigration limbo? Do you even know the difference between then and now? >And yet, despite the INS's dickitude, the country churns out startups like crazy. So enough is enough? Will more hurt, esp with 10% unemployment? Maybe we should shutdown some VCs as well, since there are enough startups. AFAIK the Chatroulette founder was on a temp visa and was exploring options for a longer term visa. Can you reference how he 'moved' here? >And I also know some who went back because their H1B visas expired; but you know what? It is good to see that. Just like seeds from a flower spread far and wide with the wind, I hope the seeds of entrepreneurship spread far and wide; the worlds needs more entrepreneurs. Silicon Valley has more than enough. Your argument doesn't make sense. According to you the US/Silicon Valley is the best place to breed startups.. but you want the potential founders to go elsewhere where they might not have the best chances. Does not compute.

tptacek 16y ago
He's saying two things: First, that it's hard to take seriously the idea that inept immigration policies are creating a real threat to the US, because it's still so far ahead of the curve on entrepreneurship. Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries. It would be a good thing for the world if there was more entrepeneurship everywhere, not just where there is the least friction to practicing it.
- cooldeal 16y ago
  >Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries. Restrictions on a work visa holder: 1) Your spouse cannot work at all unless she qualifies and obtains a specialized H1 herself/himself 2) If you get fired on a Friday, you're technically out of status from a legal point from Saturday and must leave immediately regardless of spouse,rent leases, homes, cars, pets, kids, kids' schools, personal property etc. 3) You and your spouse and kids cannot have any supplemental active income. This rules out selling photographs on stock photo sites, phone apps, etc. You can basically do nothing productive that earns money outside your job. 4) If you move to a different job or even change roles, you have to reapply for the Green Card process from the scratch. Expect multiyear delays just to get back to where you were. 5) If you or your spouse wants to visit your home country or travel outside the country, expect to get stuck there for months for no good reasons. It has become so bad that immigration lawyers are advising not to travel internationally except for emergencies. You're basically stuck in the country. See one example: Consulate Location - MUMBAI Interview Date - 26 AUGUST 2010 Docs asked? - None Docs submitted? None Docs submitted Date - N/A Email Receipt Date - NOV 23, 2010 Passport Submission Date - same day as that of interview Passport Stamped/Received Date - RECEIVED WITHOUT STAMPING AFTER 15 DAYS RECEIVED 2ND EMAIL ON DEC 15, 2010 TO SUBMIT PASSPORT AGAIN RECEIVED MY PASSPORT WITHOUT STAMPING Waiting Since (in calendar days) - 170 DAYS Petition Details: Employer Type - AMERICAN , NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION Employer Size - more than 5,000 Assignment Type - DIRECT I-797 Approval Date - 01-JULY 2010 6) Processing of applications takes forever. You can be stuck without a driving license(no renewal) in some states while your extension is pending. Imagine having to go to work with no driving license. Paying an extra $1225 in no-delay fees can speed up the process in a few cases. Edit: 7) Taxes: You get to pay all the taxes including Social Security and Medicare(employers also have to match this) and state unemployment taxes(one won't see a cent of this because one is supposed to leave as soon as they're unemployed). There was a recent bill that increased the fee of some type of work visa applications by $2000 to fund... wait for it... the Mexican border security!

kansando 16y ago

I came to the US 20 years ago too and in my experience, the wait-times are nothing like what my employees from Indian and China face. I got a PhD in 6 years, then applied for a GC 2 years into my job and got my GC within 1 year. The total time was 9 years, which while long was nothing compared to the mess today. Fast forward to today. We have PhDs from Stanford and MIT whose application has been stuck since 2005, meaning even if you adjust for the 6+2 = 8 years to apply, the total time to GC will end up being more than 15-16 years at least. I should point out that the system specifically disadvantages Indians and Chinese relative to say Mexicans, Canadians and everyone else. This coincides with an increasing level of opportunity in these countries relative to 1991 in India. To compare the two is making a fact-free argument, since even in a rational scenario, the relative attractiveness of the US has diminished over time. I think asking that Vivek return to India is an unnecessary ad-hominem attack. There are many reasons that people choose to stay here including personal ones (wife, kids, etc. don't want to go back) not all of which are driven by relative opportunity.

ajju 16y ago

Wouldn't you have preferred to get your greencard in 2 or 3 years instead of 11? I know it would have made my life quite a bit easier as a co-founder. I would have started up 4 years earlier. The argument is not (yet) about whether the U.S. is a better place to start a startup than India or China. It clearly is. The argument is about whether it is worth America's while to make it easier for immigrants to start startups. It's hard to argue that for the right definition of a startup (legal, with a real chance of making money, scalable) it wouldn't be in America's interests to make it easier. In the worst case there's an immigrant who is not competing for "scarce jobs", in the best case he/she is creating jobs.* *O.K. I cheated - in the worst case fears of those against this idea, you have a non-productive individual immigrating here on the pretext of a startup and doing nothing/leeching off of society etc, but if you find a good enough 'qualifier' (e.g. Grad degree from the U.S. and/or V.C. investment a la startup visa) this kind of thing can be minimized to where it approaches zero.

intended 16y ago

Incorrect - Things HAVE changed. India did NOT have the same appreciation for tech 20 years ago. Today it does. Friends who are 20-25 are coming back here and setting up clones of workable ideas. They are learning what needs to be done and what the opportunity is over here. They KNOW what good code is, they know what high quality means, and they ARE building it here again. They will build it from scratch if they have to. America did NOT compete for talent like it has to now. Yes the seeds of entrepreneurship will spread far and wide. The topic at hand is to make them bloom in America.